OT? Larry Nassar...
I've been debating with myself about whether to post my thoughts on this. But what the hell. I need to get this off my chest.
If possible, this is worse than Sandusky. We are talking about molestation of hundreds of women...some just children. We are talking about 20 years of smoke that was swept aside by an army of enablers. We have a coach (female, no less) who answers claims of molestation by saying..."you do not understand the treatment." and then continues to send her athletes for "treatment." We have a national track program turning a blind eye. For 20 years! And continuing to employ the man as team trainer. And yet, even with all the recent disclosures and Nassar's guilt in a court of law, this doesn't come close to the Sandusky level of notoriety. Is it somehow less egregious because female children were victims? Or less egregious because it was heterosexual and not homosexual? Or because it is track instead of football?
We have had half hearted investigations held by university counsel. Investigations which did not produce a report! For which there can be no FOIA requests because of attorney client privilege. One of the responsibilities of leadership is to actually take responsibility. This has happened on the watch of Luanna Simon and Mark Hollis. It doesn't matter if they think they can hide behind plausible deniability and somehow maintain their high six figure salaries. Graham Spanier at Penn State was fired and was convicted of a felony. At the bare minimum Simon and Hollis need to resign and if they refuse to be fired with cause. Perhaps they should consider Hari Kari for the sake of their honor but they have no honor.
I am not so naive or blind to assume this could not happen in Ann Arbor. It can happen anywhere. I hope that Mark Schlissel, Warde Manual and the rest of the people with responsibility for the safety of their community are shining light in every dark corner and have the courage to address whatever they might find. I hope.
January 17th, 2018 at 11:59 PM ^
January 18th, 2018 at 2:53 PM ^
I'm not a Michigan alum, but I do care deeply about the school. But as an alum, the only thing that can be done here is to make sure it never happens again. Everything must be done to ensure that. To the extent that seemingly the entirety of the MSU leadership is ducking down and hoping it blows over, yes MSU alums should be taking action. You should too if it ever happened at UofM.
January 17th, 2018 at 7:08 PM ^
This is a terrible tragedy. I actually think there will be a reckoning for MSU, and that eventually several administrator heads will roll.
The difference, as alluded to above, is that Paterno was revered, and football was god in Happy Valley. In MSU's case, they could bring the death penalty on the gymnastics program. Shut down the gymnastics program for a year, or three, or five. Allow immediate transfers. Ban all involved with any coaching or training or treatment with gymnastics, and track if relevant. But this wouldn't do a thing to MSU football or basketball.
Using PSU as an example, I don't think their gymnastics program was affected in the least by the NCAA sanctions. When Webber of the Fab 5 and others were running amok, this didn't directly affect Michigan football, let alone "Olympic" sports.
January 17th, 2018 at 7:12 PM ^
January 17th, 2018 at 7:17 PM ^
January 17th, 2018 at 7:49 PM ^
Can't agree with you Alumnus93. You are saying Sandusky thing is worse because the kids had no chance of protection. I don't think that is worse than victims telling the people in a position to protect them and no one believed them...in at least one instance, including the girl's parents!
January 17th, 2018 at 7:51 PM ^
January 17th, 2018 at 8:01 PM ^
I can only hope that the State AG gets involved and does a comprehensive investigation and the necessary heads roll at MSU. Comparing this to PSU is meaning less in the big picture....These victims need and deserve justice not only for themselves but for abused victims in general.
The MSU folks in question cannot be allowed to put thier heads in the sand and pretend that they are not culpable for their actions. We are not naive.....this is way more than Nassar issue only.
BTW....USA Gymnastics needs to be on the hook for this as well.......
January 17th, 2018 at 8:05 PM ^
There are a few things. The biggest difference, I believe, is that Sandusky was directly tied to JoePa, who was treated as a god in PA. Also, NCAA Football vs. Gymnastics/Track. Football is one of the most watch sport in the country and Sandusky had a pretty big role in Penn States football program. Sadly, I think another reason for the difference in coverage is because this is the 3rd major NCAA investigation in like 4 years. Between PSU, Baylor and now MSU, what is going on at MSU, in terms of abuse and a mass coverup has, unfortunately, already happened, and happened recently. I think the feeling goes form "oh my god that is terrible, what the hell was everyone thinking?!" to "Oh wow, here we go again", almost like people have been desensatised to it to some extent. Not saying it's right, but those are atleast my thoughts about the coverage.
January 17th, 2018 at 8:59 PM ^
if during the run up to the summer olympics when people pay more attention to gymnastics. Kerrigan / Harding was pretty big because of timing.
January 17th, 2018 at 8:07 PM ^
posted twice
January 17th, 2018 at 8:39 PM ^
First, The crimes themselves are equivalent. Nassar and Sandusky are from the same cloth. As said in “Time Bandits”, “Pure Evil.”
I believe the higher level of horror with Sandusky only really got there when it became obvious he was protected for the benefit of PSU football. We shall see if that ends up being the case with Nassar, as in a cover up to not tarnish MSU or the Olympic women’s gymnastics committee. Since there was no effort to retire Nassar early,like Sandusky, perhaps they didn’t really know.
It seems so far they are making it out like it’s negligence rather than willful misconduct. Any official involved in negligence should get the same treatment and more as the PSU officials. But they can’t get jail time.
Finally, if there was a cover up, it’s the Olympic gymnastic brand that’s at risk and not so much MSU’s gymnastics or women’s sports. And in either case, it wouldn’t make sense to ban any of those athletic organizations like they did PSU football. Then you’re penalizing the athletes.
I do hope they take down any official that received complaints but didn’t follow up.
January 17th, 2018 at 8:52 PM ^
After such corruption, to do anything less than burn the entire institution down and rebuild from the ashes would be to penalize the athletes.
January 17th, 2018 at 9:06 PM ^
They're still headquartered at the Karolyi ranch in Texas. I know Biles wants to return to the Olympics in 2020. Forcing her to return to the scene of the abuse with the coaches who let it happen is criminal in its own right.
January 17th, 2018 at 9:26 PM ^
January 17th, 2018 at 9:54 PM ^
Raisman doing so at 26 would be remarkable for that sport.
January 18th, 2018 at 10:33 AM ^
though my experience was very little. In our town we got our daughter into gymnastics at 4. It was a successful team. She wanted to go, her friends were going, and it was neat. Very cute. Now.... even then if she needed to go to the bathroom I took her and stood outside (single bathroom).
But what irked me, and lead me to pull her, was the attitude of the coach and the program.
At 4 there was all this praise and 'She really can do great things'. Well, at the end of two sessions she wanted to take time off to do something else. We thought it was a great idea at the time because we wanted her exposed to alot of things.
When we signed her back up 9 months later she was 'too old' and 'not flexible enough anymore' to do what they wanted. There was also some comments that we as parents weren't 'committed'. I'm not a uber competitive parent, and told both of my kids that what I want is for them to hustle, listen to the coach, and learn discipline and sportsmanship no matter what they do. I don't care if they win a match or a spot any farther than how it bums them out.
But those comments pissed me off and we were done. I've coached little kid wrestling. I would *NEVER* think of turning away a kid who wanted to come in and learn, or belittle their parents. I might say that you will get out of it what you put into it, but I think that is just a truisim.
Maybe it's easier for me, because with wrestling you had wrestle offs, and at the little kid level it's easy to find matches for all the kids. But I just got the distinct feeling that there was a more 'You're a piece of meat' feel to that gymnastics program.
January 18th, 2018 at 1:11 PM ^
get your kids in travel hockey.
These coaches are a fucking joke.
Actually, it varies by person, my son had one coach for two years who was a great guy....
jdon
January 18th, 2018 at 5:57 PM ^
January 17th, 2018 at 8:49 PM ^
Per DetNews article, MSU pres. Simon, absent yesterday, showed up in court during the lunch break.
Amanda Thomashow, who filed a Title IX report with MSU in 2014, said, "At the end of a long, tiring appointment, that man sent a resident out of the room and stuck his hand up my shirt and down my pants, despite my protests, and would not let me leave until I agreed to a follow-up assault."
She told another doctor who worked with Nassar who said he'd be in touch soon. Weeks later, Kristine Moore from MSU's Office of Institutional Equity called her. Thomashow said she "relayed my story to her and a police officer. They seemed horrified... but the investigation by MSU was weak and sloppy, and he was cleared to practice under new guidelines."
Gina Nichols, mother of Maggie, reported Nassar's abuse to USA Gymnastics in 2015. "not only was he not a real doctor because he didn't have gloves on, he didn't get consent, he didn't call us ... he didn't have a license to practice medicine in the state of Texas*. Why USAG was that negligent that they wouldn't check credentials ... it's inexcusable."
*The Karolyi Ranch is in TX, where once a month she "sent my daughter to go train for our country. We aren't allowed to go, and this is what I got."
January 17th, 2018 at 9:09 PM ^
There are many who want Sandusky and Nassar released in the general prison population so they will be sodomized, tortured, and killed. I don't think this solves anything. Neither man should ever go free. I'll agree with "lock them up and throw away the key." But violent vengance doesn't solve anything. To live the rest of their sorry days in ignomy is a good thing. To give all their victims the opportunity to address their pain, publicly, is a good thing. But to lash out in anger and seek retribution? It wouldn't help, and from what I've read, it doesn't bring the victims peace and happiness.
January 17th, 2018 at 9:24 PM ^
January 18th, 2018 at 10:22 AM ^
This is a horrific crime. But I can't support prison rape either. Both are shameful blights on our culture.
January 17th, 2018 at 9:36 PM ^
January 17th, 2018 at 9:58 PM ^
Person with penis does bad things with people that also have penis? "Worst!"
Person with penis does bad things with more people that do not have a penis? "Second, nearly as bad!"
Normal people, "Shut up!" "Do not rate the bad things based on what sexual organs you have as the victim!"
Perp "A" was a mildly known coach of someone famous! "Worst!"
Victims "B" were famous globally recognized female athelets! "Not as famous in my narrow view!"
Sorry I offended people with my opinions.
January 17th, 2018 at 9:57 PM ^
January 17th, 2018 at 10:16 PM ^
Really he's much worse than that but its not appropriate to use the P word in this instance.
Where are you Mark?
Hiding underneath your desk?
What a loser.
Be a man and resign.
January 17th, 2018 at 10:34 PM ^
I am a Title IX officer at the medical school where I am professor. Fortunately I've never had a student report potential problems to me, but our training in this role is very, very, very clear: you have to take these complaints seriously.
I really do not see how MSU dodges civil liability here, and with the sheer number of victims, I would not be surprised if the settlements are in the hundreds of millions of dollars. The appointment of Nassar's colleagues (including - holy shit - a "very close friend" and "protege") in the 2014 Title IX investigation is unbelievably, egregiously unethical and inappropriate. If I saw this happen at my institution, then I would raise hell to get it fixed. The DO school's handling of this Title IX investigation was incompetent and negligent, I'd be shocked if it is not considered criminal.
January 17th, 2018 at 11:40 PM ^
There are so many glaring examples of MSU's grotesque mishandling of this case on the part of so many adults in positions of responsibility that your guess of legal settlements totaling 9 figures seems like a certainty.
January 18th, 2018 at 12:26 PM ^
Money is the least of problems in this ghastly story that wrecked so many young lives but Id like to know how that works
How did Penn State pay its legal and liability bills?
January 17th, 2018 at 11:29 PM ^
All I gotta say is, the lack of outrage that we're seeing from the MSU community is not only maddening, but just plain scary. The incompetence on all levels is beyond words.
January 18th, 2018 at 12:16 AM ^
January 18th, 2018 at 10:21 AM ^
I have a cousin who's daughter was very tightly integrated with twiStars. We don't communicate with that side of the family often but my heart quails at what might have happened.
One of the reports I heard was that a girl of 6 (!!!!!!!) was abused. What kind of monster is this? Six? SIX? That's just evil preying on innocense.
January 18th, 2018 at 12:52 AM ^
January 18th, 2018 at 9:27 AM ^
It's completely up to her if she would want to do it and we could all understand if she didn't, but if there was any justice in the world, Rachel Denhollander would be the commencement speaker at MSU this spring with its Board of Trustees having front row seats.
January 18th, 2018 at 9:45 AM ^
"I am not so naive or blind to assume this could not happen in Ann Arbor. It can happen anywhere."
This isn't a rivalry thing. This is a 'we need to protect the minors in our charge' thing.
We are the leaders and best. We should lead by doing a top down review of our own organizations to make sure that there are safeguards in place, no cults of personality that could undermine them, and make sure those safeguards work. Hell, maybe plant someone to make a complaint from time to time as a drill, if that's even possible, to see what the coaches/people in responsibility do. We should be the best by being proactive about this and making sure this never happens.
I'm Catholic. I was a huge Joe Paterno fan. I feel like I've been through this drill before. The investigation should be down to the microscopic level and the response appropriately titanic.
January 18th, 2018 at 10:49 AM ^
Hell, maybe plant someone to make a complaint from time to time as a drill, if that's even possible, to see what the coaches/people in responsibility do. We should be the best by being proactive about this and making sure this never happens.
You know - that's an excellent point. There *will* be another serial predator somewhere that leverages the influence and resources of our university or another major organization to commit vile acts. He (not to male-bash, but statistically it'll almost certainly be a man) will be almost unimpeachable and widely respected straight-shooter with a disarming personality that everyone trusts implicitly. When a victim comes forward, will we say that person couldn't possibly have done those things or will we have the courage and integrity to act where USAG and Michigan State and heaven knows who else failed? We're not even talking about convicting the accused without trial, but at least considering the possibility so that NO ONE ELSE gets hurt if the accusation is true. You likely cannot guard against hiring a serial predator, but you can 100% control how you respond to a cry for help. The time to safeguard against a similar failure to MSU's is now - before it happens again.
Also, about the planting a complaint - dunno how many people remember this, but we did try something similar with our football team, namely having a woman interact with players on social media as a lesson in how they should be smart about using it. I actually thought that was a good idea, but since Dave Brandon had to Brandon he made a slightly embarassing headline out of the whole deal with a look-how-savvy-we-are humblebrag.
January 18th, 2018 at 10:45 AM ^
Her comment from a few weeks ago that essentially said it's impossible to stop a child molester was bad enough, but this new statement is just as bad IMHO:
"Among those notified was MSU President Lou Anna Simon, who was informed in 2014 that a Title IX complaint and a police report had been filed against an unnamed physician, she told The News on Wednesday.
“I was informed that a sports medicine doctor was under investigation... I told people to play it straight up, and I did not receive a copy of the report. That’s the truth.”
Asked about the women who said they tried to alert MSU to Nassar’s misconduct, Simon declined to comment.
“Those issues are points of dispute and part of civil litigation and I am not going to comment on,” she said. “What I can tell you is what I knew, straight up. My standard response is to tell people to play things straight up and I did not receive a copy of the report.”
So the president of a major public university received notice that a sports medicine doctor employed by that institution was under Title IX investigation simply says she didn't receive a copy of the report? WTF? Did it not ever occur to her to request a copy of the report?
And as for "those issues are points of dispute...": is she seriously asserting that the various statements by the victims should be disputed? JFC.
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/tech/2018/01/18/msu-president-told-nas…
January 18th, 2018 at 11:01 AM ^
she played it "Straight Up".
January 18th, 2018 at 10:48 AM ^
Whether it's the Catholic church, Penn State or Michigan State or countless other examples, the fact is clear: the larger an organization, the more likely it is deplorable behavior will be swept under the rug because "we've got a reputation to protect. It can't be true" no matter how much evidence stares you in the face.
"It can't happen here" are the famous last words.
January 18th, 2018 at 12:37 PM ^
'Trust but verify' has to be the watchword of the day with our kids.
January 18th, 2018 at 11:28 AM ^
Down the line of cruel acts (Nassar and Sandusky), evil is evil and it becomes worthless and irrelevant to compare them to see which one is worse. In the end Nassar and Sandusky will both go to Dante's Seventh Circle of Hell when their Final Judgment comes