Can we talk about the offensive line and what this means?
When you go through the offensive snowflakes thread you find that 90% of the discussion is around JOK's performance, understandably so. But I have to say that the largest impact this game made on me, beyond the happiness for JOK, was that it appeared to the untrained eye that our o-line is regressing, not progressing. Purdue came into the game with 1.5 sacks- against bad teams, yet there was constant pressure throughout the game. In fact only JOK's feet kept us from disaster a couple of times. If this was Iowa/PSU/OSU fine, you might say those guys are better than our inexperienced guys on the right side. But Purdue objectively has inferior talent on both sides of the ball, and yet: Ulizio continued to get owned. MO was shaky, and the rate of mental busts all over the line looked to me to be the highest so far this year.
I don't know man, not to debbie downer this win but that was concerning. You guys agree or am I too negative?
September 24th, 2017 at 9:47 AM ^
September 24th, 2017 at 10:17 AM ^
September 24th, 2017 at 10:28 AM ^
September 24th, 2017 at 10:50 AM ^
looked really bad. Be interesting to see how those guys UFR, becuase it seemed like there were 4-5 really bad whiffs.
September 24th, 2017 at 10:57 AM ^
September 24th, 2017 at 11:04 AM ^
September 24th, 2017 at 12:59 PM ^
It's too early to pass judgment on Frey's addition. Four games in it does not look good but it's way too soon to expect Frey to have turned these guys into Alabama.
And don't discount the fact that there isn't exactly a ton of OL to choose from.. Hoke may have left some great defenders behind but he left the OL cupboard basically empty. Kugler is a 5th year who couldn't beat out the mediocre guys in front of him, Bredeson, Onwenu are both young and for as good as Cole is he isn't a true OT. Then there's Ulizio, ugh... OL take time to develop in general and continuity amongst the unit is key too.
That said, O'Korn's mobility could help mitigate some of the protection issues this year.. rolling him out, designed runs, etc.
September 24th, 2017 at 1:50 PM ^
September 24th, 2017 at 4:19 PM ^
September 24th, 2017 at 3:31 PM ^
September 24th, 2017 at 4:22 PM ^
September 24th, 2017 at 4:37 PM ^
September 24th, 2017 at 4:49 PM ^
September 24th, 2017 at 4:57 PM ^
September 24th, 2017 at 5:10 PM ^
September 24th, 2017 at 5:12 PM ^
See my previous post about how skill players can make good OLs look like crap and bad OLs look good. Too fluid and complex to reduce this far.
September 24th, 2017 at 5:22 PM ^
September 25th, 2017 at 9:04 AM ^
"But my point stands, the distribution is nothing like Michigan's"
The distribution isn't the SAME as Michigan's - but it is absolutely "something like" Michigans.
Michigan has 1 experienced player, 1 inexperienced player, and 3 players with zero experience.
Oklahoma had 3 inexperienced players, and 2 players with zero experience.
Oklahoma was the #1 offense in the country.
We were #40 last year (with WAY more experience than Oklahoma)... and we're significantly worse so far this year.
September 25th, 2017 at 10:47 AM ^
September 25th, 2017 at 12:01 PM ^
Because the number of starts is so much lower.
Having:
2x0 starts +
3 x <15 starts
vs.
3x0 starts
1 x <15 starts
1 x >15 starts
Should not be the difference between the #1 offense in the country and something like the #80 offense in the country.
Does having less experience, and more first time starters matter? Absolutely.
Should it matter THAT much, given recruiting and coaching? Not even close.
September 25th, 2017 at 12:02 PM ^
Michigan has more new starters - but the Oklahoma guys haven't been "in the pipeline" LONGER.
LT -
Michigan: 2.5 years in pipeline, 42 starts, 4* (0.9408) recruit
Oklahoma: 2 years in pipeline, 13 starts, 3* (0.8731) recruit
LG -
Michigan: 1 year in pipeline, 12 starts, 4* (0.9790) recruit
Oklahoma: 1 year in pipeline, 0 starts, 3* (0.8674) recruit
C -
Michigan: 2.5 years in pipeline, 1 start, 4* (0.9696) recruit
Oklahoma: 2 years in pipeline, 11 starts, 2* (0.7783) recruit
RG -
Michigan: 1 year in pipeline, 0 starts, 4* (0.9459) recruit
Oklahoma: 2 years in pipeline, 0 starts, 3* (0.8775) recruit
RT -
Michigan: 2 years in pipeline, 0 starts, 3* (0.8342) recruit
Oklahoma: 1 year in pipeline, 9 starts, 4* (0.8986) recruit
September 25th, 2017 at 12:12 PM ^
September 25th, 2017 at 1:03 PM ^
September 24th, 2017 at 11:03 AM ^
September 24th, 2017 at 11:51 AM ^
taking most of the snaps. He seems like our best blitz picker upper, and the other two struggled (based on this untrained eye)
September 24th, 2017 at 12:05 PM ^
At least yesterday, the main blitz busts that I saw included Isaac. It seemed like he would ID the right guy, and then barely get a hand on him. I didn't watch Higdon or Evans closely enough, but it was Isaac who stood out as missing to me.
September 24th, 2017 at 12:54 PM ^
September 24th, 2017 at 11:01 AM ^
I think the OL issues this week, in terms of pass protection, was more diffuse than just the preponderance of right sided line issues we've seen to date.
Yes, the RB's have not consistently picked up blitzes. The WR's too often don't seem to get great separation, and that likely causes the QB to hold on to the ball longer.
In addition, in the 1st 3 games, Harbaugh's love of the vertical passing game was apparent, modified, finally, against Purdue. We need to run routes that are quicker, so as to get rid of the ball quicker and place less of a demand on our pass protection.
Having said all that ... the run blocking has been inconsistent and sub-par all along the line all season to date. Left, right, or up the middle ... there is no spot that is money on 3rd and short.
At this point, this is not a classic Michigan OL or even a dominant line. Hopefully, it will grow into one.
September 24th, 2017 at 11:24 AM ^
Some of the blocking from RBs was not exactly stellar. Kind of makes me wonder about Jay Harbaugh our RB coach.
September 24th, 2017 at 11:32 AM ^
September 24th, 2017 at 11:55 AM ^
Nobody can be surprised that Jay Harbuagh with zero rb experience would struggle to coach rb's on how to properly blitz pickup.
September 24th, 2017 at 1:57 PM ^
and Evans is in his 2nd. All of them were primarily coached by Wheatley. But sure, the new guy comes in and makes them forget everything they learned before.
September 24th, 2017 at 1:33 PM ^
On Speight's final play, the first defender to hit him (not the guy who hit his back) ran right by Cole, and not in the "beat him with speed" sense - Cole didn't block anyone on the play.
September 24th, 2017 at 9:48 AM ^
September 24th, 2017 at 10:07 AM ^
Evaluating OL play is such a fluid process though. I've seen a lot of really good running backs & QBs make poor OLs look good and I've seen a lot of mediocre RBs and bad QB decisions make good offensive lines look pretty bad. What's not helping is that prior to the second half of yesterday's game, play-calling has done NOTHING to help mitigate some of the offensive problems.
UM's current RB situation is Chris Evans who needs a hole to burst through and who still goes down a bit too easily when a gaping one isn't there, Karan Higdon who on too many plays shows little to no vision, and Ty Isaac who has to the naked eye looked like the best RB on the team but who always seems to get fewer carries than we'd like to see. All of them struggle with pass blocking at times.
The timing is off on some of the blockings because again, 3 RBs with 3 different skillsets are struggling to set up blocks. Then you have play-calling which calls run on 1st into a stacked box, followed by run on 2nd into a stacked box, and then a slow developing 3rd down play with unproven and inexperienced wideouts outside Perry that defenses just attack relentlessly. Sometimes too it's Speight holding on to the ball for far too long. And then again, the RBs struggle with pass blocking, so let's keep stubbornly getting stuck in 3rd and long and relying on RBs in blitz pick-up.
Once Purdue was put on its heels a little bit with some quicker passes to TEs and even some first down throws, things opened up and the offense (including the line) looked more competent.
So how much of it is the OL vs. running backs vs. poor QB play vs. JV football play-calling is going to be fun to talk about over the next two weeks.
September 24th, 2017 at 10:23 AM ^
When a qb starts hitting TEs, Purdue seemed to be scrambling trying to figure out which TE would get the ball next. It really opens things up.
September 24th, 2017 at 10:56 AM ^
with thei njuries and relative levels of performance, I hope we see more TE-heavy packages. Love seeing Gentry get more confidence. He is a very difficult match-up for most teams.
September 24th, 2017 at 10:38 AM ^
It really is quite obvious and you pretty much touched on it. Because Speight and our young receivers are unproven teams are stacking the box and playing downhill to stop the run. They have no fear of Speights ability's and are daring Michigan to beat them with the pass. The o-line cannot block 7 or 8 guys who are run blitzing. This will only continue until Michigan starts hitting teams for big plays as they did against purdue. Speight is playing scared and with no confidence and defenses feed off of that. Enter OKorn and he starts hitting wide open receivers as he will continue to do against over aggressive defenses. The plays are there to be made. No offensive play calling will work without a competent QB. Okorn also opens up a lot of other possibilities and puts more pressure on defenses because he runs a 4.4 forty. There is no QB controversy as we saw how the offense can go with the right QB.
Also our offense does not have to be off the charts great. It just has to be efficient. Our defense gave up ten yards in the second half to purdue. Completely shut them down and shut them up. This team is just going to grow as the season goes on. I do question sometimes the players we use on some plays. Wide receiver screens or quick outs should go to DPJ period. He is the fastest and strongest wr so why not utilize that. There is a lot of talent on this team and we have only scratched the surface. Sit back and enjoy!!!.
September 24th, 2017 at 11:37 AM ^
VERY GOOD quarterback play solves most of these issues. The coaches are being very conservative because they have an incredible defense and they are trying to win the game. I do agree that short passes will help the QBs get some confidence and rhythm. EXCELLENT quarterback play would be nice. We have not had that in a long time. We will not have that until Peters or McCaffrey gets some experience and development.
September 24th, 2017 at 12:09 PM ^
The rest is about right. The other problem is that even when a team only sends 4 or 5 someone usually gets through.
September 24th, 2017 at 12:47 PM ^
with his mobility i can see them moving the pocket more on passes to avoid the rush. he also seemed pretty comfortable throwing on the move.
given that the RBs are also pretty bad at blocking, i would like to see them chip a blitzer then move into the flat for an outlet pass. hardly ever see that.
at any rate, they have a bye week to work on a lot of things.
this young D, though, is unbelievable at this early stage.
September 24th, 2017 at 10:50 AM ^
of the idea that we were saving plays for tougher future opponents.
I do think, on the other hand, that there was a hope we could establish line dominance and grind other teams down, and that this--especially the outset of games--has contributed to the sense of stagnant play-calling.
There may also be a feeling that banging hard in the beginning, whether hugely successful or not, wears defenses down as a game goes on.
This discussion will cease to matter, though--it won't matter a lick what the rationale(s) were--if some more creative play-calling doesn't come in future games.
Was listening to the conversation last night about how Brian Kelly gave up play-calling to spend more time with his players. I think that this conundrum, for clever HCs, faces most coaches.
Jimmy's going to be tested down the stretch a little in terms of offensive game-planning; it will be interesting to see what path he takes. It could be that Speight's injury and O'Korn's emergence simplify things for him in productive ways.
September 24th, 2017 at 11:31 AM ^
You should absolutely be skeptical of the idea that we are saving big play calls for big opponents. After all, this coaching staff arrived in 2015 and 2016 with the opposite mentality -- "give the good opponents so much on film that their defenses could never possibly master it all."
Occam tells me it's much more likely that we are very young, and/or Drevno is over-hyped, and/or P.Hamilton is over-hyped...than the likelihood that Harbaugh has, in one offseason, completely overhauled his philosophy of aggressively giving opponents the maximum to prepare for.
A counter might read as: "Well we've (just this season) reached an inflection point in terms of the percentage of scholarship guys that Harbaugh hand-picked, so it's reasonable to expect an inflection point in play calling. However, (a) that sort of switch has never been discussed of his previous stops (Stanford and SF) and (b) no matter the roster make-up, this offense isn't yet well trained enough to survive without constitutively clever playcalling.
September 24th, 2017 at 11:40 AM ^
Harbaugh has to know the bolded portion is true. Do his screens, dives, and clever gadget plays require more offensive competency than we have?
If so, that might implicate some group other than (/beyond) the OL (seeing as this OL looks...like a carbon-copy of the last two; i.e., equivalent in the magnitude of their Underwhelming Coefficient and Turnstile Rate). Is it the WRs? Their blocking seems fine. But their routes have been rough. Is it the QBs? Pre-Iowa Speight ran a more inventive offense very well last season, but he's never returned to pre-Iowa form. Could there be lingering injury mechanical or confidence issues?
It'll be interesting to see what happens to the playbook under O'Korn. It'll also be interesting to see how we explain things if the playcalling becomes suddenly inventive.
On the basis of insufficient evidence, we could stumble onto a lot of bad beliefs -- that the plays were saved for MSU and beyond, and/or that they were the product of O'Korn being a better heir, and/or that Speight had been playing at less than 100% since Iowa, and/or that the rest of the offense finally put it all together in the IDLE week.
That would all combine to save Drevno from the hot seat.
September 24th, 2017 at 7:36 PM ^
September 24th, 2017 at 12:23 PM ^
September 24th, 2017 at 9:49 AM ^
A lot of the pressure was due to poor blocking by running backs on blitzs.
September 24th, 2017 at 9:50 AM ^
September 24th, 2017 at 10:12 AM ^