On Notre Dame Hockey To The Big Ten
So this happened, and it's kind of a big deal if you like hockey:
OFFICIAL: @NDHockey will join #B1GHockey as a sport affiliate member beginning with the 2017-18 academic year. pic.twitter.com/Dfg1Z57ykY
— Big Ten Hockey (@B1GHockey) March 23, 2016
Assorted takes to follow.
Yes, it's a good idea
There's been a ton of bitching about this move on both sides, which I expect from NDNationers literally still upset about something that happened in 1910. I expected less of that from the Michigan side of things but our thread here is about 80% "f*** Notre Dame." I wish Bo had never said "to hell with Notre Dame." It is the crying Jordan of things Bo said.
I downvote all of you metaphorically. Michigan and Notre Dame should play. In hockey, in football, in whatever. Curling. Sure, curling. They have a strong AD and quality revenue programs, they are a historical rival, they are a geographic fit. Not playing them—not wanting to play them—is juvenile.
This goes double for hockey given the situation the Big Ten finds itself in. Simply put, the schedule is much better off with four games against the Irish than it is without those games. (Especially because those will be home-and-home weekends.) The league is much better off with Jeff Jackson in it than outside of it.
The downside is… what, exactly? Notre Dame will feel less pressure to join the Big Ten in all sports? If you think hockey factors into that decision one iota I have news for you.
No, don't add Arizona State
A seven team conference is a bit odd but is doable. The league schedule expands to 24 games, one team is on a bye they can fill with a nonconference series every week, it's fine. FWIW, Brad Traviola says an eighth team is not currently on the table:
Notre Dame makes seven, and Big Ten deputy commissioner Brad Traviolia said there are no current plans to expand to eight. Some Illinois and Nebraska fans wish their club team would upgrade to varsity, but such a move requires major funding and proper facilities.
Moving to eight gets tricky. Options:
- 28 game conference schedule. With 28 conference games your nonconference gets very restricted. Michigan and MSU are in the GLI every year and the cap is 34, leaving just four slots for new teams. This was the worst thing about the 12-team CCHA.
- 14 game conference schedule. Opposite problem, nowhere near enough.
- Two divisions of four, 20 game conference schedule. This was more or less the CCHA's solution after they went to 12. They rotated pairs of teams through groups of four so the schedule did change up.
- Play everyone three times, 21 game conference schedule. Logistically difficult. Some of the odd games could be taken care of in switch weekends like the old College Hockey Showcase. M would travel to Minnesota for Friday and head to Wisconsin on Saturday while MSU did the opposite, that sort of thing. The eighth team would probably have to be a geographic pair for Penn State, though, and there isn't one that makes sense. I mean, Robert Morris is in Pittsburgh but do we want to add Robert Morris?
All of these have costs in a way that adding team #7 does not, and so the hypothetical eighth team had better be worth it. A team in freakin' Arizona with zero history is not worth it, especially when the Big Ten does not need another RPI anchor. Arizona State doesn't have a name brand in any sport, let alone hockey.
Yes maybe add someone else
There are teams that would be worth it if they were amenable. Foremost is North Dakota, a fierce rival of Minnesota and Wisconsin who Michigan also has a ton of history with. North Dakota is an incredibly well-supported program that would bring a buzz to Yost every time they showed up.
As a Midwest-ish state flagship school, North Dakota fits the Big Ten reasonably well. Bringing them in would mitigate some of the Minnesota hate for the new arrangement. It would improve the overall quality of play. It avoids some of the optics problems with adding a school with a bunch of other D-I programs—North Dakota is D-II in everything else. [Update: this is no longer true.] If they want in the Big Ten would be dumb to say no.
Would they? I think they probably would. Despite being perennially one of college hockey's best teams, just four North Dakota games were on national TV this year. From the Big Ten's perspective you do get a small bump by adding North Dakota, the state, to the footprint. And as mentioned, UND-Minnesota was the fiercest rivalry in college hockey once Michigan State went into the crapper. (And probably before that.) NoDak is the easy #1 choice.
If the Artists Formerly Known As Sioux don't want to come, there are other programs that would be worth it:
- Miami. Quality program with a new rink. Hating on Enrico Blasi is great fun. Geographic fit makes three-game league configuration feasible.
- Whichever Minnesota program the Gophers want. St. Cloud, UMD, whatever. Good programs that will be good in the future. Mitigates Gopher hatred of new league. Geographic fit.
- Western or Ferris. Neither team is going to knock your socks off with their on-ice performance but they are a geographic fit and old CCHA rivals.
Let's Play Hockey suggested Miami along with Arizona State, UConn, and UNO. Only Miami should be a viable contender amongst those schools. UConn has most of the baggage ASU does and is already in Hockey East. The only reason they would join the Big Ten is in the faint hope that would be a prelude to joining in all sports, and see Notre-Dame-to-the-Big-Ten-in-all-sports above for my take on that. UNO is a good program vaguely in the footprint but it's not much better or worse than a lot of schools a lot closer.
Notre Dame keeping its NBC contract is good
This is not the right take at all:
Keeping the TV contract is what actually surprises me the most about Notre Dame to B1G in hockey. B1G flinched. https://t.co/cQ4i3ifJwG
— Matt Wellens (@mattwellens) March 22, 2016
This isn't basketball or football. The BTN cannot televise all of its hockey. Other channels pick up games for the rest of the league all the time; there is no reason not to allow Notre Dame to do the same. Meanwhile now I know two road games will definitely be on a channel I get. From a fan's perspective anything that gets a game on TV is good; the NBC contract takes pressure off the Big Ten Network's limited programming space.
Now we can definitely do the State Championship thing
Trophies are good [Patrick Barron]
Notre Dame now becomes an obvious choice to fill out the field for the Michigan hockey championship I've been advocating since the dissolution of the CCHA. There are seven hockey programs in Michigan spread across three conferences now; they should play each other, and they should give someone a trophy for it.
Add Notre Dame in now and divide the eight teams into groups of four that switch annually. Michigan and MSU are never in the same group. Two WCHA teams are in each group. Hypothetical groups:
Group A | Group B |
---|---|
Michigan | Michigan State |
Ferris State | Michigan Tech |
Western Michigan | LSSU |
Northern Michigan | Notre Dame |
Each team plays the others twice. Teams in the same conference have an early-season conference series that counts towards the standings without adding additional nonconference commitments. The top two in each group advance to the GLI. The bottom two play a consolation round at the Joe either a couple days before or at the same time. Hand out a big ass trophy to the winner.
This is a:
- Six-game commitment for the WCHA teams, ND, and one of M/MSU.
- Eight-game commitment for M/MSU every other year and WMU.
Michigan, MSU, and MTU have already committed two of those games with their annual participation in the GLI. With a 24 game conference schedule Michigan would have 2-4 dates to play with annually and could still go out to Boston, play a tomato can, that sort of thing.
It is doable, and it would make the GLI a bigger event. It would provide a semblance of the old CCHA and amp up early season nonconference games. It's more or less adding an FA Cup to the college hockey schedule. The state of Minnesota would probably follow suit in short order.
Maybe things can start making sense now
ND to the Big Ten makes sense. Could this be a new era of not shooting yourself in the foot in college hockey? Please Tiny Jesus make it so:
No regional sites have been selected past 2017. And, according to Kristin Fasbender, the NCAA’s director of championships and alliances, the committee and the college hockey body as a whole will explore whether a new structure to the regional portion of the tournament, which could include playing games at campus sites, is a more viable option.
“I think there is continued conversation about [changing the regionals],” said Fasbender. “The committee keeps talking about what [the tournament] looks like when we go forward.
“We’re in a year here where at our four regional sites, none of our host institutions are in them. So I think we’ll continue to have this conversation as we get into the championship in Tampa and at the coaches’ association meetings in April and the [NCAA Division I men's ice hockey] committee meetings in June and trying to talk more about what we want to continue to look at globally for the whole tournament as we go forward.”
It's long past time to move to campus sites. North Dakota earned the opportunity to host a regional. Instead they're in Cincinnati, playing in front of nobody. But I'm a broken record about neutral site college hockey.
Don't overlook this sick Rutgers burn
Red on the move:
“Expansion is brought up every time the Big Ten is mentioned so (the move) is a good step in the right direction,” Berenson said. “It makes sense geographically. It’s not like we’re going out to play Rutgers or something. We’re playing a team that is in the Big Ten footprint.”
Oh snap, Delany.
North Dakota is a D1 school...just in the Big Sky Conference. Not much different for our perspective, but they made the jump a few years ago.
For Minnesota.
The local chatter on sports radio and in the sports section of the largest paper here, the Star Tribune, is hugely down on the B1G hockey conference. They literally are non-stop pining for North Dakota or Duluth to add some historical rivalry.
Who would it suck for? Penn State. With some proper stoking of the fire, there's no reason in 5 years Penn State won't be one of the best programs in the country. Penn State is 1,287 miles from Grand Forks. Now, Penn State has the money to make that happen, but everything that far away is harder.
North Dakota may not be interested in that many non-bus trips per year, depending on how their AD budget shakes out. The B1G would probably need to shell out some helper money.
plain and simple
can you help me break quintuple digits?
Can you help me break zero?
reinstated.
Still would like to know the details.
20MM points dropped off in a Louis bag at his doorstep. Can't get into it in more detail than that, sorry.
I will not elaborate on details here; the admins involved were not unfair in exacting the consequence. I posted something that was overtly about one thing but that was clearly meant to be political in nature (FWIW I think a view widely held here, but nonetheless inappropriate for this space).
I was not a victim of injustice; subsequent reprieve granted is welcome but entirely an act of graciousness.
Because your life depends on Sissy Points, and obviously a lot of self esteem is wrapped up in them around this blog.
March 24th, 2016 at 10:24 AM ^
Did it involve Donald Drumpf?
That's going to take divine intevention my friend. Luckily, I believe you may have more of a direct line than most of us.
Always like your commentary srj...
Eh the CCHA had to travel to Alaska every year and the players seemed to like it, so I don't think it would be that big of a deal.
The University of North Dakota has an advantage in the aviation department. They are probably the number 1 aviation school in the country. I could be wrong but I believe they have the biggest fleet of aircraft of any college in the country so I imagine it can save them some cash on flights (guessing).
Other reasons for adding North Dakota as an affiliate:
- Best rink in the country (by far)
- Fan base travels exceptionally well and is not only a big fan of their own team but of college hockey in general.
- Perrenial powerhouse. As big a college hockey program as there is. Would be like adding Alabama to the B1G for football as an affiliate.
- Restores rivalries with Minnesota and Wisconsin and adds premium games to everyone elses schedules
- Grand Forks is reasonably in the B1G footprint. Most people residing in the state are a fan of B1G football teams.
A. It's not any different than flying to Minneapolis.
B. They are the reason we are in this mess in the first place, so they don't get to complain.
If Red's gonna dish out burns like that we're gonna need more sunscreen on hand.
I would abso-fucking-lutely LOVE a conference with Miami (OH) and North Dakota. Notre Dame is a good addition, but North Dakota fans are insane (in a good way) and Miami (OH) brings with it that old-school CCHA feel that I've missed so much since we "joined" the B10.
Red's been hanging out with Harbaugh.
Now if we can just get Beilein to join in . . .
"I don't even think he fertilizes his lawn before it rains!" scoffed an incredulous John Beilein after Thad Matta made a crack about Beilein's questionable edging job.
I briefly waded into the Hate on ND thread...meh. Yeah, screw Notre Dame and all that but seeing them at Yost again a few times a year is going to be great fun.
You hate rival school.
Rival school hates you.
To be rivals, you need to play each other.
I say this as an Official "I Was At The 2014 Notre Dame Game In South Bend And Lived" Member.
It's better to play them than to not play them.
This is exactly it. Rivalries matter. They frankly matter more than just about anything in college sports. The point of a rival is not to never play them. That thread reminded me of the slight-majority UVA opinion when Maryland left the ACC. Many rejoiced. Some wished for VT and UNC to follow. I was like, WTF you guys, hating Maryland is a reason to play them, not to not play them. Replacing UVA-Maryland games with UVA-Louisville games doesn't do anything for me. Likewise how replacing UM-ND games with UM-MACsnack games also doesn't do anything for me.
Notre Dame will sleep with anybody.
None of their away unis should ever be white.
Fuck Notre Dame
You're a douche
I would like to play Notre Dame in all sports that matter (hockey, basketball, and football).
What he said.
Ditto, what they both said. This is such BS that nd is allowed to sleep with whatever conference they want for all the different sports. I would like them to be a permanent B1G member (then we cold jettison penn state!!!), but I just hate this convenient attitude that they can pick and choose where to join and who to play. For that reason, we should not enable them to join unless it is full on join.
BTW FUCK penn state and all their delusional joepa loving fans.
But I'd cold jettison PSU whether ND came to the B1G or not.
Stuck in the past, stuck in hate, stuck in wanting, really, to BE Notre Dame when they grow up.
All this talk about Notre Dame not being "special" is quite silly when it is OBVIOUS they ARE.
Even to the guy who wrote this article for the Blog. Sheesh--Notre Dame RULES the NCAA because it is TRULY the ONLY "national brand" out there that everyone recognizes--for ALL the right reasons.
National guys know this. Talk Michigan--most of your audience snoozes. Talk Alabama--a little less snoozes, but still. Talk Notre Dame--no one turns the channel.
There is a reason Notre Dame gets this treatment--they move the dial. Michigan fans who whine like stuck pigs--too bad. Notre Dame TWICE was rejected for B1G membership because of Michigan. Sorry--eventually they go the hint and moved on to bigger and better things--while the Big Ten went into dormancy and is now, save Ohio State Football and MSU basketball--fairly IRRELEVEANT in EVERYTHING (oh wait, maybe national fans respect the Big Ten for academics LOLZ)
The reason ND gets this special treatment is because there are not many more Aces up anybody's sleeve. That's why conferences expanded, blew up, realigned. That's why there is now a "playoff" in Big Boy Football.
ND is the one that's hanging out there that could, and probably very likely WOULD bring the right conference the absolute HAMMER ion terms of making everybody associated with said conference and Notre Dame--and even the NCAA, VERY RICH.
If I was the B1G commish--the one thing I'd do is negotiate a short term deal for TV and kiss Notre Dame's ass for the entire time--and GET THEM IN. The BIg Ten might need this more than any other Power Five. The NATIONAL BOOST with Notre Damne would defionitely make the B1g THEE Conference.
We all know it. We can huff and puff, and echo Bo's line that was MEANT for another time--hell, it gives those who repost it several sissy point boosts--but Notre Dame is the shot in the arm, the new blood--the ONLY thing the B1g can do at this point to pull itself out of the mediocre muck it's mired in.
Michigan fans--get over yourselves. This is a good move, and mostly, due in large part to the school you all pretend to have attended--the B1G is in this position of having to constantly court the Irish.
As long as people are willing to take them, then they are special.
BTW, we could do the same thing. If we wanted to farm out Michigan Football, Basketball, Hockey, softball, baseball, swimming, etc. to different conferences . . . there are conferences that would take each of those sports.
We're special too.
This
March 23rd, 2016 at 10:03 PM ^
This is exactly how I feel as well. It's not a pure and simple "Fuck ND." It's "Fuck ND if they want to pick and choose what sports they want to play us in." Be in the Big Ten or be in the ACC or don't be in a conference at all but don't ride the fence. I don't see why we should admit a school for one sport who doesn't want to be admitted for the others.
Now get your football team to follow suit, LOL
acc hoops, b1g hockey, independent in football (but treated as their own conference)?
It's kind of ridiculous.
Similar, but different due to circumstances.. it's surprising how many SEC schools play random sports in other conferences. Florida and Vandy play Big East lacrosse, Mizzou MAC wrestling, Bama/Tenn B12 rowing, Kentucky/S. Car C-USA soccer. Weird, isn't it? The SEC doesn't sponsor a lot of sports.
I wonder what they chant when they are beating other conferences with these teams?!
March 23rd, 2016 at 10:12 PM ^
That's more an issue with the SEC as a conference than those individual schools. Most SEC schools don't sponsor many sports, so the SEC can't sponsor it as a league. The Big Ten and Pac 12 are unique in the number of sports they sponsor as a conference.
"Please Tiny Jesus make it so:"
Miss you Shawn Hunwick...
Also thank you for the Scooter Vaughan empty net aftermath clip. Incensed Fighting Sioux fan is incensed and would be a welcome addition to the league.
To Hell with Notre Dame!
(But yeah, adding them makes a lot of sense, so glad to have them in as an affiliate. Only concern would be if someone thought to expand that affiliation beyond hockey, which - no thanks unless you bring football with you. You want the milk, buy the freakin' cow.)
I miss those matchups with ND. They always played some great games. It seemed like they had our number for a few years there. Hopefully we give them a proper ass whooping on Friday as an early welcome to the conference. Also, I'd be thrilled to have North Dakota in conference. I'd pay good money to see that matchup at Yost. Miami would be a nice back up plan.
I don't hate it in terms of getting better hockey for Michigan and the B1G.
I hate it because it shows that ND is allowed to stretch out their Ego wherever they please, and everyone graciously accepts without contest. I don't like that they get to benefit from the perks of being full member of the ACC in strong ACC sports (basketball, lacrosse, soccer, etc), independent in football with a partial ACC schedule with the likes of Clemson, FSU, Miami, VT, etc (and they still get to play USC, Stanford, B1G teams, military schools, and another game of choice (Texas, ASU, Georgia are recent and future examples)). A 1 loss season for them is likely a Top 5 finish (albeit without the benefit of a conference championship game).
While Michigan is in a conference run by a moron, and have to live with Rutgers and Maryland in football. Instead of letting that be an anchor for Michigan, we adapted and turned it into recruiting success (at least partially attributed to Rutgers' participation in the B1G).
The only thing I'm looking forward to is (begrudgingly) being able to watch Michigan beat down ND on NBC and listen to their announcers make excuses and whine about it.
I don't think the Notre Dame football scheduling situation is as great as you seem to indicate. First off, I think it's fair to say that ND is a semi-independent or quasi-independent when it comes to football. As you point out, they're committed to play five ACC teams per year, have longstanding rivalries they honor with Navy and USC, and have a commitment to play one game on the West Coast each year, which means they also play Stanford for now. Those eight games are a de facto conference schedule.
Secondly, because Notre Dame doesn't have a conference championship game, it's in the same pickle as the Big XII schools and Brigham Young. When it comes to figuring out which teams are going into the four-game playoff, ND doesn't have that last data point to make its case. If the Irish go undefeated, then they should be in the playoff and I don't think anyone would complain. But as 2015 demonstrated, one loss teams without the benefit of a playoff (TCU and Baylor), can find themselves on the outside looking in.
The final thing to look at is the "other" teams on Notre Dame's 2015 schedule. Yes, they did play Texas last season (in a year where UT was pretty bad), but there other two games outside their de facto conference schedule were Massachusetts and a surprisingly good Temple squad. Some of their ACC opponents weren't that great either--Virginia, Georgia Tech, Wake Forest and Boston College weren't exactly Murderer's Row by season's end (Pittsburgh was okay).
So how does 2016 stack up? There are some big names on their schedule---Texas (again), Michigan State, Miami (which is not what it used to be), Virginia Tech, USC (which also isn't what it used to be) and Stanford. But then you add Nevada, Duke, Syracuse, North Carolina State, Navy and Army. It's about a half-and-half proposition for them.
Other future ND opponents include Miami (Ohio) in 2017, Ball State in 2018 and New Mexico in 2019. I can't imagine NBC is too cracked about those games. And FWIW, U-M doesn't even play MAC opponents anymore (Ball State is on a future schedule, but without Hoke around, I have to imagine that game may be on the blocks).
Regarding your second point, I think the comparison between ND and any Big-12 school (yes, even mighty Texas), is over after the fact of no conference championship game. ND has the national clout, recognition, admiration, blah blah blah puke love fest no Big-12 team has. They will get the benefit of the doubt from any Playoff Comittee Member more often than any Big-12 team.
As for how rankings will handle a 1-loss ND team: They suffered a loss in a monsoon on the road to Clemson, and dropped from #6 to #15. They worked their way back to #5 with wins over the garbage you mentioned
- Navy, USC, Temple, Pitt, Wake Forest, and BC
Which led to a season finale against highly ranked Stanford. If ND won that game, you better believe they would have been in the playoff.
So with a schedule playing #14 GT (W), #12 Clemson (L), #21 Temple (W), and #13 Stanford (L), they still went into Bowl Season ranked #8.
I don't think ND suffers at all from not declaring themselves in a conference for football. And I actually think they are benefitting greatly from it.
Thing..Lots of good observations and suggestions...and after reading through and absorbing it all I only have one thing to say....
FUK NOTRE DAME
and their conference shopping of indv sports and their contract with NBC ( "BIG Flinched" as if ND had pulled one over the BIG TEN)....FUK ND.. Pick one conference and STICK TO IT....After the way they pulled out of FB Contract in the middle of the night so they would end it with a Home Game after getting beat what 4 out of 5 years or something like that? To Hell with them.With CFB Committee saying their #1 criteria above all others is Conference Champions it will get harder and harder for them to qualify...GOOD! thats the price they will have to pay to stay independent...Oh darn
Part of the explanation of accepting Johns Hopkins was that in addition to a storied program, and their one D1 program needing a home, they were also an excellent match as far as CIC and research money partners. Notre Dame is a bit of a stretch due to their lack of research and graduate studies, but still a match academically, culturally, historically, and geographically. How would this play out with a school like North Dakota, which is a match for this one sport, but such a stretch culturally, academically, and financially? This would be fun for hockey, but really open a huge can of worms, IMO. It would really go against the sharing of academic resources we are proud of. And don't tell me this is about TV money....
It gives a solid match up every season but I just don't see it happening for too many other reasons. Put the pressure on Illinois, Iowa, or one of the NU schools or stick with 7 and run a bye week.
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