OT: If you were a graduating college kid, which city/state/region would you choose?
To begin your career. We have a daughter graduating in a few weeks and she's moving to Seattle. Not at the advice of us or really even her plan, it's just randomly where her internship last summer happened to be and they made her a full time offer back in August. She really liked Seattle, so that's where she'd headed. Our youngest daughter is starting college this fall in Ann Arbor. If you have kids, are you advising them to head to certain places you think are positioned to prosper and/or if you could do it all over again and were a graduating college kid next month, where would you go?
March 13th, 2022 at 12:51 PM ^
I think NYC/SF/DC, etc are great places to cut your teeth and see the major centers of various industries. Particularly important IMO if you're born/raised midwest. Lots of young people, lots of energy and then move back to Midwest or quieter locale once you're ready to raise a family and take some of the iron you've sharpened and apply it where you ultimately settle.
"Particularly important IMO if you're born/raised midwest."
How much does that really mean in 2022? Serious question.
Also, do you think someone raised in the Chicago suburbs is less worldly than someone from rural upstate New York or western Massachusetts (no one's idea of the midwest)?
If you'd made a rural <> urban comparison it might have made more sense.
Double B says: "Small towns ... talent that would all be canned if they had to work in a New York or Chicago."
That's a lazy generalization and pure crap. Talent, hard working and unlimited ceiling talent comes from anywhere and can succeed working anywhere. Guaranteed!
I see you are receiving many negs. But since there is significant validity to your point-I will support you. My wife-a Kauffman and myself-a Yoder know about rural life...my mother was raised Amish. Three of our four grandparents farmed for a living and each of us lived very near these grandparents. Marla's father ran off to med school and mine started an aluminum boat manufacturing business. These dynamics influenced and changed our lives significantly and facilitated an appreciation and concern for both the more rural and more urban aspects of our American lives-gave us a view of the world that very few of our many cousins have any meaningful knowledge of.
Today we live in rural Kansas-after having lived and worked in Indianapolis for 15 years. The pluses and minuses of rural vs urban from a work and quality of life perspective, for us, fall heavily in favor of the "urban"...despite our rural roots-which we actually love and appreciate. We are in healthcare and the quality of rural healthcare, every aspect of it...out here in Kansas...to put is bluntly, sucks. Much of this suckiness revolves around a pathological provincialism that appears to endemically invade and pervade and dominant the landscape. This is not about lack of intelligence or character. It is about the lack of connectedness and appreciation for the larger good beyond the boundaries of ones town, township or county-and it seems to naturally choke off and narrow ones perspective-and justifies ignorance of other possibilities. And, it is very, very sad-even devastating.
Being a human being is quite the deal.
outside, it makes me sad to read this about your assessment on your living circumstances. fwiw, rural living in northern michigan, though not some perfect nirvana, is nevertheless really nice. maybe time to relocate for you and the mrs?
March 13th, 2022 at 11:00 AM ^
It doesn't matter. We spend too much time thinking about how to get a small edge. Seattle sounds cool as hell. Good for her!
March 13th, 2022 at 11:02 AM ^
There are some significant advantages from living in states that do not tax income, i.e., Washington, Texas, Florida, to name a few, particularly if one is going to make significant income. States do have to find income to run and they often use higher property taxes and/or sales taxes to make up for not having an income tax.
As for me, I'd look for states that have weather that allows for more of an outdoor lifestyle year round.
After Michigan, I went to DC where my employer paid for grad school and law school which I attended at night. It was and is a good area to live.
One could make a long list of reasons to live somewhere, but living in areas with lots of young people would be high on my list.
I would put DC near the top of the list, although weather-wise, the months of July and August are pretty miserable unless you like extreme humidity. The winters are pretty mild.... especially for someone coming from a Michigan/Midwest winter.
From an economic standpoint, it's a fairly recession proof area due to the large number of federal government employees. Of course the cost of living there has skyrocketed the past 10-15 year so it's not an inexpensive place to live. Easy access to other large cities like Baltimore, Philly, NYC, Baltimore also make it appealing
There are very few metropolitan areas in the US that haven't gotten considerably more expensive over the last decade or so. Housing, both to buy and to rent, is painfully expensive and seems to be getting worse by the day.
As for the DC area being hot and humid in the summer, that never stopped me when I was young from doing things outdoors. I always thought wearing fewer clothes was a good thing, particularly when it came to....you get the idea.
March 13th, 2022 at 11:02 AM ^
Completely depends on what field they're going into. For me, personally, my business can be located anywhere without affecting my costs (outside of local taxes), so choosing somewhere with the lowest cost of living allows me to save the most for my future and family.
March 13th, 2022 at 11:10 AM ^
Seattle in the summertime is sublime. Time will tell if your daughter's impression changes after a winter in the Northwest.
When I graduated a long, long time ago I had a stark choice of job locations: Anchorage AK or Phoenix AZ. I went with warm weather, and haven't really regretted the decision. It's not because of the place, it's because of the people I've met along the journey.
Location is less important than those you associate with. Proximity to an airport is a close second!
March 13th, 2022 at 12:15 PM ^
Yes, Seattle is awesome. But by summertime, you mean August, because it rains the rest of the year.
Not anymore. In the 11 years I’ve lived in the PNW, we have had pretty great weather from June-September. It even gets too hot for my liking quite a bit.
Winters are mid-40s and rain every day. Still beats, winter in A LOT of other places.
March 13th, 2022 at 11:25 AM ^
I would say FL, TX and TN. More ladder jobs (pay over 6 figures) and low cost of living. Avoid CA, NY, NJ and MA.
Agreed
March 13th, 2022 at 11:31 AM ^
Las Vegas easily, i tried everything to get their when i was in the USAF.
Abilene Tx, if you want to live a boring life.
March 13th, 2022 at 11:36 AM ^
Congratulations to you and your daughter. Seattle is tough to beat in the summer. My oldest daughter moved to Bellevue to accept a good position after interning in the area as a software engineer. She likes it, though misses the sunshine in the winter. She plays rec. soccer and softball and enjoyed hiking. During the pandemic, working remotely she was able to be home with us the last two years between Thanksgiving and New Years, and really enjoyed The Game with us this past year. She is back to 3 days a week in the office now. No state income tax in Washington is also nice. Mt. Rainier, Lake Washington, and the Puget Sound are beautiful imo. Good luck to her.
March 13th, 2022 at 11:40 AM ^
I just spent the last 18 years in Oregon, and we loved it out there. Home prices rose significantly, but at the time, it was a very good blend of Seattle and Cali life styles. I would definitely move back, especially if she can locate outside the Portland area where cost of living is lower. Bend, Eugene, etc
March 13th, 2022 at 11:40 AM ^
As others have noted, the field is important. If you have a certain kind of top-end talent you want to go to a place where you can fully realize it. This would be NYC for the arts (just an example).
On the Pacific NW winters: Yeah, they're dark and rainy, but if you grew up in Saginaw you'd hardly notice. Warmer, too. It's mostly people from sunny places (Californians) that get bent out of shape.
March 13th, 2022 at 12:04 PM ^
This^ Listening to the radio while working a summer job in college the DJ mentioned that it was the 300th non-sunny day in a row in SE Michigan. It might be more gray in Seattle, but I can't imagine it being too much worse than Michigan. I loved Ann Arbor, but SE Michigan winters got me down. Cold, gray skies and no lake effect snow or skiing. I'd love to live in Traverse City or somewhere on the west side of the state on a lake.
March 13th, 2022 at 12:32 PM ^
Oh, I was right at home in that winter weather since I'd been living in Vermont. I mean, Vermont weather laughs at your weak Midwestern shit. No sun? HA! Try no sun AT A MUCH HIGHER LATITUDE. Yeah, in the middle of winter the rises at 8 and sets at 3:30, except you never see it because thick clouds everyday. It gets cold there? You get snow? This is a frozen wasteland, bitch.
Note here that I'm not calling anyone here a bitch. This is Vermont weather calling Midwestern weather a bitch.
Call me after you’ve spent January in Rovaniemi Finland.
Having spent some time in PNW winters, having it rain every day for 45 days is harder to deal with than a Michigan winter, at least for me. But if you buy the right rain gear and wear contacts instead of glasses, it can be just fine and not get in the way of many outdoor activities.
It also feels worse in urban environments than out in the woods, so I agree non-cities that are fairly short drives to an airport are ideal places to live, provided you can work from anywhere
March 13th, 2022 at 11:49 AM ^
For me New York was the perfect place to spend the first 10 years of my career for two main reasons.
1. It's a fiery inferno of pressure to succeed with just enough internal support to make that success possible. So if you buy in, you grow extremely quickly there and become capable of thriving anywhere.
2. There are hundreds of thousands of people in their 20's in New York doing the same thing across many industries, so it's easy to relate and make friends. And because so many thousands of people are in the same boat, there is a general culture of willingness to put in the time and effort to become a star in your field, which feeds back into reason 1.
So aside from just recommending New York City, I would recommend your kids find places that have those two qualities and be willing to buy in to the system there to the extent necessary to master it by age 30 or so. After that, options none of you can imagine right now will become available.
March 13th, 2022 at 12:04 PM ^
This can't be rec'd enough! Perfect last sentence.
March 13th, 2022 at 11:53 AM ^
Nebraska. I'd want to be in the center of all the action, and they're the nicest people.
EDIT: and definitely not the PNW. When that cascadia subduction zone blows, Boise will suddenly become beachfront property.
March 13th, 2022 at 12:34 PM ^
Well, when all the ice melts and the seas rise you'll want to be living on high ground.
Nah, it's only up to I-5 that will be water.
March 13th, 2022 at 11:58 AM ^
Interesting question. If you're able to work anywhere (not location dependent) then it becomes a personal preference/lifestyle decision. I agree with the commenter who said that bigger cities are better when you're younger (before having kids) bc you don't have expensive taste and can tolerate the daily hassles involved. Once you have a family then time becomes a finite limitation in your life and longer commutes and traffic, parking hassles, etc become less tolerable.
I did my internship in Denver and my fellowship in Mpls-St Paul and loved both--outdoor activities abound, great areas to explore, but not overwhelmingly huge like Chicago or NYC. Once I got married and had kids I was happy (and still am) to have settled in a college town (Iowa City) that has great public schools and where daily hassles are minimal.
Cost of living is low other than housing which is overpriced--not just right now but since I moved here in '94. Plus we're half a day's drive from several major cities. Not to mention it happens to be a B10 college town so I get to see the Maize and Blue every few years when they play at Kinnick.
Two of our three kids are in college and we're not directing where they end up at all. They may choose to be near us but it's totally up to them; if they settle further away then we'll go visit. Once we're done working we'll probably move elsewhere, for at least part of the year. Unfortunately I suspect that climate change may impact our choices down the road.
March 13th, 2022 at 11:58 AM ^
I came to Seattle right out of Michigan and never left. It is a great place.
March 13th, 2022 at 11:59 AM ^
I went to Chicago after school and met my wife there. It is a great place for recent graduates. There is a large Michigan alumni base there and it is great place for road trips to other B1G venues. Income tax is lower than a lot of other places although sales taxes and property taxes are high.
Just read an article on how IL has the highest tax rate in the nation (combining income taxes, sales tax and real estate). Like 39% higher than the national average.
I live in Chicagoland and it's a great area, but taxes are egregious, and you dont get that much for what you pay.
And it's still impactful for graduates, because even though they rent, taxes are passed on through higher rent.
https://wallethub.com/edu/best-worst-states-to-be-a-taxpayer/2416
March 13th, 2022 at 12:02 PM ^
Some bad advice on this thread. Who gives a damn what the state income tax rate is when you're 22? Considerations in retirement are not the same as beginning your career--not even close. This is the same logic that worries about an extra 3K a year in student loans so choose to attend college at Eastern Michigan instead of Harvard. Or, using a football analogy, worried about the play call on 3rd and 5 instead of the talent differential that puts you down 28 in the middle of the 3rd quarter.
I'm assuming your daughter has a job in a professional field of some type, possible tech. To be more precise, I assume this is a job that would have serious potential for substantial money / responsibility at some point in the next 5-10 years? If so, the sky is the limit and she should do the best job she can to get noticed by higher-ups and network her ass off. In some ways she already has as she went from internship to job offer at the same place. She's on the right trajectory--now is the time to maximize it.
decisions at 18-30 are critical to financial security later in life. failing to carefully consider the true cost of education and cost of living while in school versus real potential future income is risky. loan repayment costs and even local taxes on your income while in school and early years after can prevent you from putting that money to work for you with 30-40 years to grow. i work with providers of similar age that make substantially more than myself that are in far worse financial positions with six sometimes near seven figure student loans in tow and comparatively little invested with retirement in mind. attending expensive schools, prolonging educational years and/or early employs in high tax areas are all factors. interest, lost productive years, and taxes can be more expensive than your real expenses if one does not employ careful planning and living within one's means early in adult life.
March 13th, 2022 at 12:07 PM ^
Everyone has their own decision matrix, but for me it would really come down to a handful of factors --- (1) where are the jobs? If your career path is K-12 teacher or something purely remote, you can locate anywhere. If you're looking to work in, say, fashion, certain financial or tech fields, you need to locate in one of a small number of places. (2) Are you married? If you are, more options. If not, you may favor locating where the potential partners are. (3) Where is family? Is that important? (4) What kind of lifestyle do you want? Urban, suburban, country, outdoors activity, water, mountains, whatever
Personal calculus for me was I was very flexible on work locations, single, family in Michigan, I didn't mind a few years of big city life but didn't want hot weather. Made taking a job offer in Minneapolis an easy call. Moved around quite a bit since, but as a new grad it was good.
March 13th, 2022 at 12:09 PM ^
TLDR: Move somewhere that does at least 2 of these 3 things, and ideally all 3:
- Immediately furthers your career and gives you a great opportunity or springboard into something bigger.
- Allows you to maximize fun in your life according to what interests you.
- Is affordable enough that you have enough money to enjoy where you live and still allow you to put a something away into your savings/retirement.
———————-
Obviously, advice in this topic somewhat depends on career/aspirations in that career - though this is less of a factor for many now with the rise of permanent remote work. However, work is only half of your day and (ideally) none of your weekend, so live somewhere you enjoy.
When I graduated from college, I had no job lined up just yet, so I went home to PA for a few months and worked as an intern at a mid-size ad agency until I got an “real job” offer from a job in Texas, at which point I moved there until late 2019. That was out of necessity, but I wouldn’t live in Austin/San Antonio ever again - awful weather, Austin has comically small highway/public transportation infrastructure, and both cities are strip malls and HOA developments as far as the eye can see.
If I were rewinding back 6 or so years ago, I would move to coastal Orange County or coastal/near-downtown San Diego - cheaper (not saying much) than LA, nicer weather than 99.9% of the country with 65-80° most days and little rain, lots of sporting events and outdoor activities. Mountains, beaches, desert, etc. Rent is prohibitive to a degree, but if you can actually be good with your money, it’s not too hard - especially if you have a roommate/girlfriend/boyfriend. The only drawback is that the dating scene for people is supposedly very hit or miss here and is overall much harder than most other areas. I already had a girlfriend when we moved here so it wasn’t a big deal for me, but I’ve heard stories.
Here is what I would do when choosing where to go: Make a list of cities you like or think you may like. If you have the time, plan some vacations or weekend getaways to a few cities on your list, check them out, and get an idea. Make a checklist if 10-20 things you care about, and rank the cities you like with that list. For example:
- Job Market For Career Goals
- Apartment/Housing Costs
- Grocery/Gas Costs
- Public Transportation and city Infrastructure
- Nightlife (if that’s your thing)
- Sporting Events
- Outdoor Activities
- Airport Connectivity
- Overall City “Vibe”
- Safety
We did this and made a list of cities like LA, Denver, San Diego, NYC, Chicago, Minneapolis, Denver, Dallas, and others. Since all of these are large cities, we booked 3-4 day mini-vacations and visited them all on weekends, where we then checked out the towns, went to grocery stores, and checked other things. Once we were done, we ranked then all, and found that we really liked SoCal, and here we are! Surprisingly, you know what #2 on our list was? Freaking Minneapolis. We still may end up there one day.
March 13th, 2022 at 12:18 PM ^
Quite the comprehensive approach. Not everyone has the time/money/motivation to approach it that way but the idea is a good one in the abstract. I am not at all surprised to hear that Mpls was high on your list. IMHO it's very underrated bc the long/cold winters get the headlines. You do have to embrace winter rather than try to power through until spring, and if you can't embrace it then it probably wouldn't be a good place to live.
But the spring, summer and fall in the the T-C's are glorious, walking around the lakes wonderful, the bike paths and Greenway are hard to top anywhere else and the recreational opportunities more generally are vast. Plus the food and arts scenes are pretty darn good too. Not NYC/Chicago/LA of course but close enough if you're not a snob about that kind of stuff.
Not surprised at all. Minneapolis was a great place to live. Tons of amenities. Only downsides were the cold -- seriously, it really is colder than Michigan and a lot of people from out of the area complained that people were clannish and chilly toward outsiders - which HS did you go to was not an uncommon question. Didn't bother me any.
There are issues, like any other urban area. Not sure there is any city where you can completely avoid them in the 2020s.
My (now) wife and I loved living in Corona Del Mar. Not sure it's where we would want to raise a family due to high cost and different values, but man did we love our 2 years there. Restaurants, weekend trips, weather, beaches. I also lived in DC right out of school and loved it.
Back in the Midwest though because we love the fall (really like having different seasons) and both of our families are here.
March 13th, 2022 at 12:13 PM ^
I'd look at housing vs pay. Go from there. When I moved to Idaho falls it was cheap but so is pay. Housing boom here, pay never changed. I'd avoid the west now.
March 13th, 2022 at 12:18 PM ^
Go to the hub of your chosen field or profession. Build your book, your credentials, your expertise/skill set, your network, etc..
Stick it out for 2 to 5 years, then, if you like, relocate to someplace that makes you the most (fill in the word).
Good advice B, if career is a top priority, make your bones first.
March 13th, 2022 at 12:20 PM ^
Seattle is a great choice to start a career. I relocated to Berkeley and Palo Alto after UofM and then spent 2 years in La Jolla as a post-doc. I then moved to Seattle. So. Cal, the Bay Area and Seattle are great for tech and engineering but expensive now. I have been in Seattle for more than 20 years. Yes, the winters in Seattle can be gray (but warm), but drive 75 miles east, over the crest of the cascades and you have dry sunny snow to get out of the gray day gloom.
March 13th, 2022 at 12:27 PM ^
That was one of the great things I noticed when I lived in Portland. The winter rain was a bummer, but you could just drive a couple hours to Bend and enjoy dry weather. It also wasn't nearly as much of a bummer as brutal Midwest winters.
March 13th, 2022 at 12:25 PM ^
I say this having spent most of my life in the Midwest and one year in Portland, OR. I would move to the Pacific Northwest in an instant if I had a good career opportunity there. The cities are fun, the weather is great, the outdoor activities are limitless, and the natural beauty is stunning. It's expensive, but not California expensive. There is something primal about being among mountains. I only spent one year in Portland, but I miss it.
March 13th, 2022 at 12:37 PM ^
I'd stay around family unless it was clear that I'd be unable to have a career. Regrets at the end of life generally center around relationships and family. Structuring your life first around your job and second (if that) around relationships/family is an incorrect ordering of life imo.
Society has a loneliness epidemic despite us being more connected than ever, and people still don't see that deep and meaningful real life relationships are the best way to fix that.
This is definitely worth considering. Many of my college friends went on the job adventure after school to a faraway city, then had children and immediately moved back to be close to the grandparents. In my families case, the grandparents relocated because they were tired of the snow.
March 13th, 2022 at 12:47 PM ^
It is an interesting era to consider this with so many jobs offering remote or hybrid work. My company has been trying to hire someone in regulatory affairs for our office in the Chicago suburbs. No one wants to work on site and we may have to settle for someone that only visits.
I lived downtown big city for five years after AA and it was great. Then we moved to the burbs for kids and picket fence.
Probably depends on the field, but I sort of like the Nashville, Atlanta, Chicago areas with seasons, jobs, moderately expensive. Denver, Phoenix, and San Diego are intriguing. I couldn't do the bay area or New York. The weather and politics in Florida or Texas might be difficult for some. Seattle is nice....but becoming very expensive to settle down.
March 13th, 2022 at 12:54 PM ^
Don't think about low tax states. If you're not making a lot of money, it won't matter too much IMHO. You only have one time to be young and to move to a place at 23 because you dont pay 5-8% of state income tax seems ridiculous.
One of my greatest regrets after college is not moving to Chicago where a number of my friends went. It has the best of all worlds...lots of young people that are friendly to hang out with and a lot happening. The weather sucks for 8 months of the year, but summer is awesome.
I moved back in for a year with my folks, another year with a roommate, and headed to Minneapolis for an MBA. Great city to be young in (a smaller version of Seattle for music), but after the 2 years of my MBA program, I wanted out because of the weather and the size of the city. Headed to Atlanta, which had a lot of recent college grads, and tons to do.
Eventually found my way out to LA, which is where we have lived 23 years after arriving. If I were myself at 23 again, I would either move to a beach town like Hermosa with lots of young people, or Lincoln Park in Chicago. Or I would move to Barcelona or Prague, which both have great nightlife. NYC is great, but way too much of a struggle at an early age.