I'll take another McGrone please [Patrick Barron]

Mailbag: Transition Costs, Wendy's Chili, Next Year's McGrone Comment Count

Brian November 7th, 2019 at 12:48 PM

Bye week! Mailbag time!

There were style transition costs, but these were mostly self-inflicted. Michigan's transition costs were larger than expected largely because they 1) went away from last year's running game for no apparent reason and 2) installed a bunch of stuff they barely or never used and then threw that away. Everyone's still waiting for that orbit motion to generate a QB pull with a pitch phase, except they ditched it.

I do think the first time play-caller stuff had an impact. Gattis moved from the box to the sideline after a couple games, which is evidence enough, but also: Michigan ran a ton of arc read stuff early in the season and almost never ran split zone, the play the arc read fakes. Speed in space was just a rumor until Penn State. It wasn't until Notre Dame that Michigan actually got sufficient RPS wins to come out significantly positive.

Also a transition cost: it feels like Gattis, who wasn't around Patterson last year, spent half the year finding out what didn't work well with him.

[After THE JUMP: slurry, but in a good way]

About two-thirds of them. There are some personnel issues that seem unrelated to anything that can be coached up—Patterson leaving pockets. There was also the spate of fumbles that were well out of Harbaugh's historical range; that was just bad luck.

But, yes, Michigan is still finding what it wants to do midseason after panicking when their offseason plans turn out to be bad. This is seemingly every season.

Contrast that with the D. Michigan's had the same DC for four years. Chris Partridge and Mike Zordich have been around that whole time. Greg Mattison had been there the whole time until his departure last offseason. There have been a couple spots that have rotated frequently but for the duration of Brown's tenure you've had a 3-4 man core that has provided a steady hand.

When you maintain this you can shift much more easily. Michigan's defense is a lot different than it was last year, but it's all the same playbook; Michigan is now emphasizing different parts of it. They were practicing these plays last year, with the same terminology. That gives them a leg up when they evolve the D. That D currently sits 3rd in SP+ despite having a lot of personnel turnover and a lot of philosophical shift. They can do that because of the continuity with their coaching.

Meanwhile on offense: Ben McDaniels and Josh Gattis are in year one. Ed Warinner and Sherrone Moore are in year two. The only guy who's been around is Jay Harbaugh, who's a good recruiter but appears to have no strategic input. That's not a situation in which you smoothly evolve your offense because you have a core of guys who know what's worked and what hasn't worked in the past.

I do think the outlook is better going forward, largely because the limitations of turning over your offensive staff over and over again have to be clear. Also one of the main problems was Tim Drevno wandering around the offenses like Mr. Bean, knocking quality tackle recruits into neighboring states while looking for his glasses. The prospect of having Ed Warinner around for the long term is great for 5 of your 11 starters.

The obvious candidate is Dax Hill, a five star who's playing well in limited snaps and is a holy lock to succeed Josh Metellus as a starting safety. The main problem with that theory is that when a safety plays well you don't see him nearly as much as you see Cam McGrone. True impact safeties are pretty rare, and it's asking a lot of Hill to be one even if he is the athletic prototype.

The second bust-out candidate on D is Michael Barrett. Barrett looked very good in the spring game and has carried that over to special teams play. He's the odds-on favorite at viper next year.

Offense is much harder to project. They get back every skill position player aside from Tru Wilson and whichever WRs enter the draft, so it'll be hard for anyone to bust out. On the OL you're looking at a number of different candidates for what's probably three jobs; the answer is thus "whoever is the best of those guys." Ryan Hayes and Nolan Rumler are the best bets to be excellent out of nowhere, or close to it in Hayes's case.

I don't know? Surely there was another bodybag team Michigan could have scheduled that would not have caused two extended tangents about The Horror. I was expecting Warde Manuel would be much better at Dave Brandon at being a likeable human being. Check. I was hoping his athletic department would feel meaningfully different than Dave Brandon's, and I don't think that's the case.

Milton has a shot. He was always going to be a project you needed to check up on after two or three years in the program, and it seems like he's made good progress. However, it seems pretty clear what the depth chart pecking order looks like right now and it would be an upset if that changed next year.

I do think Michigan should have a real competition, and if Milton is at all plausible they should get him some early meaningful playing time if that's what it takes to keep him around. I do not want to go into next year with just McCaffrey, McNamara, and a currently unknown and possibly nonexistent 2020 QB commit.

On the WRs: the good thing about Michigan's inability to get their receiver troika the ball is that it increases the chance Michigan gets some of them back. Black is the most likely to come back of the three, because he's had less opportunity to demonstrate NFL skills.

I bet Collins is gone. It's impossible to hide that talent even if Michigan is trying. Peoples-Jones talks a ton about being a doctor and maybe hasn't quite proven himself in NFL eyes; solid chance he comes back. Black I think needs to come back because he won't be on NFL radars with his current level of production.

I don't know.

I think we forget that Michigan felt like the better team for about 85% of the JT spot game and felt better at 21 of 22 spots in the O'Korn game. It's not going to take a miracle to beat Ohio State—though this year ain't looking good. It's going to require a modicum of luck and a gameplan W Michigan's had about half the time. Getting to parity is a tall order; actually winning some of these games is not nearly as impossible as Michigan's made it seem.

No. I mean, maybe. I don't know what kind of standards your kid's PreK has, but if this is a cookoff, sir, your own dignity demands real chili. Wendy's chili is not chili. It is ground beef soup. It's pretty good ground beef soup, I'll grant you, but it is not chili. Chili involves the ritual assassination of collagen molecules one by one over long periods of time until you have a pile of delicious meat gelatin. Ground beef cannot do this no matter how long you cook it.

Actual chili is stupid easy anyway. Also it may be the case for you that sometimes you walk into a grocery store and someone points as gun at you and says "this nine-pound pork shoulder is 1.50 a pound" and then you end up with nine pounds of pork shoulder. This happens to me at Busch's about every three months. Nearly free-pork shoulder disposal is an increasingly serious problem.

A chili recipe is almost beside the point but here's what I do:

  • create a CHILI SLURRY, capitalized for its importance, out of good-quality dried chilis—I get mine from this place in Colorado—by steeping them in hot water for 15-20 minutes and then giving them the stick blender until it's a uniform consistency. Use a bunch of ancho/mulato chilis for a solid base without heat and then ramp it up with hotter ones as per your preference.
  • cut the shoulder into long slices against the grain and brown it in an enameled dutch oven, drain most of the fat after you're done
  • chop up a couple onions and throw them in, scraping so that the brown stuff ends up on the onions instead of the pot
  • return pork to dutch oven, dump in a bunch of canned diced tomatoes and kidney beans (if you want) and the slurry
  • cook it until the pork is falling apart, 6-ish hours
  • salt to taste, maybe add some fish sauce or Worcestershire if it lacks a certain something
  • hell yeah

Note that this is a great platform for heat because the rest of the chili tends to knock it off your tongue.

Beans are fine in chili. Don't even start. Don't be a prescriptivist.

Comments

canzior

November 7th, 2019 at 2:18 PM ^

I think it'll depend on the draft status of the current guys.  OSU receivers aren't exactly lighting the league on fire even if ALL of them are in the NFL, save for Michael Thomas. (not saying they aren't good, but other than Thomas, they are just guys)

If Collins has a good combine and is a 1st round pick...even a 2nd round pick and goes to the right place, and gets the right pub...it looks good.  The Michigan can say "i can get you to the NFL without you needing 80 catches and 1k yards per season."  And DPJ might be a first round pick because his potential at the combine will cause teams to salivate.  The whole production argument will only work for some GMs who will be tricked by obvious stats, otherwise Rashan Gary wouldn't have been drafted so high. 

TrueBlue2003

November 8th, 2019 at 12:40 AM ^

It seems like the fact that all the OSU receivers are in the league but not lighting the league on fire is exactly why you'd go there.  You'll get a contract no matter how good you actually are because the system and talent makes you look good.

You are correct that if Collins goes high, it looks good and is evidence that college production doesn't matter nearly as much as talent which is largely how the NFL drafts anyway.

Still, if I'm a top player, and I know that my talent will get me drafted pretty much regardless of where I play, I'd rather go to the place where I'm going to catch a lot of balls because it's just more fun that way.

rice4114

November 7th, 2019 at 2:44 PM ^

People are also missing the drops as well. In 10 passing plays you see

everyone covered / throw away

incomplete 2x

missed throw hi/ low 

incomplete 2x

Dropped pass 

incomplete 2x

completion 4x

That is why the rain VS ND made our offense so amazing. We had to run and kept doing it until they broke. We didn’t give our offense another option and those shit shows listed up above couldn’t end our drives. Just go full Stanford and win your 10 games a season until another Luck comes along. 

 

 

Dizzy

November 7th, 2019 at 2:27 PM ^

Collins is great, but DPJ, Black, and Bell are also excellent. Collins is likely the first read on a lot of routes, but defenses aren't just going to give you that all day. I bet teams are running a lot of zone against us this year because trying to match up man to man against these dudes would be dumb.

It makes sense that Collins isn't putting up elite numbers as teams play more conservative against us and try to take him away. Bend but don't break and disguise your mismatches. Force the quarterback to  read the coverage and repeatedly throw into tight zones. 

If you get too aggressive, you'll be caught chasing ghosts.

It also makes sense that this offense looked at its best vs ND when we were a run first outfit and pass was the constraint. If ND didn't fire their guys at the LOS we were content to keep pounding that rock.

Lots more space in the second level when defenders are running themselves out of the play.

 

Shop Smart Sho…

November 7th, 2019 at 1:30 PM ^

If you're adding fish sauce or any other umami device at the end of the chili cooking process, you're doing it wrong. Add that shit when you start simmering everything to really develop flavor.

Ferg0dsakes

November 7th, 2019 at 1:35 PM ^

Re:  Dax/Safety impact.

File this under "Exception to the Rule", but in 2008 I went with my friend (Illinois Alum) to Illinois/WMU @ Ford Field.  WMU's Louis Delmas flat-out dominated the game.  It was to the point where I was, "d@mn, I don't know if I've ever seen a Safety dominate a football game".  He would go on to play for the Lions (there's no need to go down that road).... His "gap to NFL talent" wasn't great, but his "gap to a 5-7 Illinois' squad" was out of this world.

EDIT/UPDATE:  To clarify, I only meant to describe a single-game, in-person, viewing of dominance from the safety position.

CRISPed in the DIAG

November 7th, 2019 at 5:24 PM ^

Ronnie Lott is in the College Football Hall of Fame. He was a consensus All American on teams that won national championships. As a pro he played corner the first few years, but I remember him as a safety with linebacker size. 

I don't remember much of anything about Paul Krause except a bit as a pro on some good Vikings teams.

HenneManCrush

November 7th, 2019 at 2:11 PM ^

So, I'm curious why people are thinking this. I mean, it's a gut feeling I have, too. But I don't really know if I can put a finger on why.

If you had both Nico and potentially DPJ jump to the NFL, seems like that would be a great opportunity for Black to shine. But I can't shake that feeling, either, and I'm curious if anyone else can.

robpollard

November 7th, 2019 at 2:27 PM ^

Because we have had (too high) hopes for him for a few years now. Part of that is not his fault, due to injuries, but this year he's been healthy and he is clearly the #4 receiver on this team.

Even with Collins and DPJ being underused, they jump off the screen at least once or twice a game ("Look at that speed!" ; "Look at the way he went up and got that contested ball!"). I struggle to think of Black standing out in any real way.

There is nothing except his size that says "NFL" -- hands, speed, route-running, blocking are all OK at best. Not to mention, I'm sure NFL teams will be cautious b/c of perceived injury risk.

I hope he sticks around b/c my hope is that part of the reason for his "meh" performance this year is him coming back from injury and the other part being the "meh" play-calling we've displayed during Gattis' first year. But he needs to make the most of his opportunities now; next year happens when it happens.

woosterwolverine1224

November 7th, 2019 at 2:26 PM ^

I think this just comes from people trying to read tea leaves on a young adult's social media. Tarik supports ex-teammates and friends of his at other schools and people immediately assume he is looking for greener grass. If you watch him throughout the game, he doesn't seem like a player who is uninterested or wants out. Here's to him and the offense fully breaking out against MSU and OSU.

 

Hab

November 7th, 2019 at 1:52 PM ^

Question: why dont they make the whole offense out of "chuck it to Collins"

Because then our offense looks just like Notre Dame's who insists on just chucking it up to Claypool.  That may be good for 14 points per game, but it also looks a lot like intramural flag football games down on Mitchell Field.

TrueBlue2003

November 7th, 2019 at 2:09 PM ^

Let's be real here: transition on offense is not the root of the problem, it is an annoying symptom that makes things worse. It is a result of the real problem: poor hires at OC.

Coordinator/asst coach transitions are almost always immediately positive when you make a good hire (if the talent is also in place, which is absolutely was for Michigan this season). See: LSU being much better with a good offseason hire and many other similar examples.  See: Don Brown.

The problem is that Josh Gattis came in as a bad OC.  Simple as that.  Drevno and Pep were mediocre before him.  So we've just had this revolving door of mediocrity.  New guy comes in to try to improve the offense, does a bad job of it and then Michigan scrambles to fix it by going back to what took them the previous season to figure out.

Gattis might be getting better, but we don't really know because it's clear Harbaugh and Warriner just stepped in after his disastrous early season.

When your hiring process is 1) done in a bit of a panic after a guy unexpectedly leaves 2) is completed based on a 20 minute conversation for a job he'd never done and 3) involves offering a guy that all three of his previous bosses did not think was qualified for the position (Moorhead, Franklin and Saban), there are MAJOR red flags.  It was a hugely risky hire, and it certainly didn't hit right away.  Maybe he'll get better but a $1mm/yr development project that might hit in time for the guy to leave isn't a good bet.

And that's been the problem on offense.  Bad hires, which leads to trying again and again.  This is pure speculation of course but it seems like Harbaugh has a reputation of being too involved in his offenses and that seems to have been warranted in prior seasons.  Not a lot of elite OCs would want to be Co-OC or part of a three headed monster like Michigan had been doing. That was perhaps the reason he hasn't been able to attract better OCs.  I think Harbaugh, to his credit, recognized that and fully gave over control to Gattis.  He was just the absolute wrong guy to do that with given his experience.

db012031

November 7th, 2019 at 2:25 PM ^

If you think Harbaugh gave full control to Gattis, I have a bridge to sell you.  Gattis gets to call the plays "with input" from Jim.  That's not full control.  An considering some of our mind boggling play calling is the same this year as it has been in years past, that pretty much confirms there was never Full Control from Gattis.  That and Shea just cannot read a defense if his life depended upon it.

Perhaps the issue also happens to be that for an alleged QB Whisperer Jim is supposed to be, our QB's have been less than desirable for the last 5 years.  The best season of any of them was Ruddock and as we all know was a competent QB coming from Iowa.  We frankly haven't had the talent at QB or the talent just hasn't developed and the ONLY constant is Harbaugh...

Simply put, Jim just cannot get out of his own way on the offensive side of the ball.  

TrueBlue2003

November 7th, 2019 at 2:48 PM ^

How was the early play calling the same as in prior years?  It had no resemblance of years past. They literally were not doing anything Jim Harbaugh teams typically do, which wouldn't have been a problem if they were actually calling a good gameplan, but they weren't.

Btw, calling plays isn't the only job of the OC.  It is secondary to installing the playbook.  Installing plays that work for your personnel. And repping them in a way that your players are executing them. Being organized. Whomever was doing this did a horrible job. 

If you think Harbaugh and Warriner forced or even suggested to Gattis they scrap plays they ran and that worked last year, do away with a FB and run 100% of plays out of the gun, I have a couple bridges to sell you. I'm sure Harbaugh was super uncomfortable with all that but bit his lip so as to give Gattis space.

The QB issue is nonsense.  Sure, it puts a ceiling on Michigan's offense such that it isn't where Clemson and Alabama are but Michigan's offense was pretty good last year with Shea Patterson. There is absolutely no reason this offense shouldn't have been at least as good as it was last year even if Patterson hadn't improved.  Actually, there is one reason: inferior coaching.

And in the first 5 games this season, it was AWFUL with primarily the same personnel to start this year.  It tanked.  You're over thinking this. What was the one change made? Gattis.

You are 100% wrong if you think this is Jim Harbaugh simply being too involved in the offense. The blame does fall on him, but it's that he just can't/hasn't made a good OC hire that will allow him to be comfortable with getting out of the way.

TrueBlue2003

November 7th, 2019 at 4:24 PM ^

No question it's Harbaugh's fault.  But his "involvement" is multi-layered.  He does the hiring of the coaches.  That's the most important part of his involvement in the offense and that's been the problem the past few years.

It seems like the assertion that the Harbaugh-is-too-involved crowd is making is that if he just got out of the way on the day-to-day/play-calling, things would be better.

One thing is very clear based on this season: simply removing himself isn't the solution if there isn't a good OC in place.

If you think he's been sabotaging good OCs, take a look at what the previous ones are doing now: Drevno back to an OL coach, Pep out of football, Jedd Fisch had two meh years at UCLA and is now, get this per his Wikipedia page: "Fisch operates as the Rams' clock-management specialist."

username03

November 7th, 2019 at 4:57 PM ^

You make a good point with where the past OCs are currently, one I definitely can't dispute. I would say the jury is still out on Gattis and it definitely seems to me his wings have been clipped a bit, although I couldn't definitively say there isn't good reason for that. One thing I do know is I do not see anything that suggests they are trying to get any speed in space and I don't mean exclusively through the passing game, where the its all Shea's fault caveat may apply.

TrueBlue2003

November 7th, 2019 at 5:14 PM ^

The jury is out on what Gattis might become.  He's young and has much to learn.  He might eventually be good.  He was unequivocally bad when he arrived. 

All of these things fall on him: not knowing what Shea could or couldn't do until halfway into the season, not having a coherent game plan with constraints and counters, not anticipating how defenses might play Michigan, not using plays that worked last year, not having the offense organized enough to not call TOs on the first play of the game, the list is long. 

username03

November 7th, 2019 at 5:48 PM ^

That's where our 'dispute' arises though. I see no reason why all of that should be attributed to Gattis when we have seen many of the same things when he wasn't here. 

Specifically with respect to the constraints and counters, that is where I would argue his wings were clipped. While I can't definitively prove it, do you really thing a spread guy touting speed in space really didn't want to throw a bubble screen until the 7th game of the season or actually use the orbital motion until the 9th or give the ball to the jet guy more than a few times? You think Gattis really wanted to run up the middle 20 straight times against Army? If that is the case then you are right, he has been a horrible OC.

 

TrueBlue2003

November 7th, 2019 at 6:26 PM ^

My answer to all those things is: yes. Not that he wanted to do those things per se, but that he left himself no choice. I think Gattis was woefully unprepared and also not anticipating what the defenses would do or reacting to what they were doing.

You people are all way too stuck on the the fact that they ran up the gut against Army as evidence that Harbaugh was pulling the strings. It was fourth/third and short, running is a no brainer.  Most coaches in the country would run there.

It's how they were running that made it super clear it wasn't Harbaugh or even Warriner that had installed the playbook.  They weren't lining up in the I with a FB like they would have previously done. They weren't even calling split zones that were a staple of the Warriner installed run game mid-way through last year. They were calling the same shotgun runs almost certainly because that's all Gattis had prepped or that's what he thought would work against what Army was doing.

As to the bubbles, that's been a part of Harbaugh's offenses before.  It was Borges that refused to run them.  I don't know why you'd think Harbaugh would be preventing Gattis from running bubble screens when he's never limited those before.

The whole #speedinspace thing is just a buzzword.  Gattis can tweet it and say it but he has to know how to do it.  You know the term fake it til you make it?  Yeah, that seems applicable here.

Besides, Michigan doesn't have much speed on offense so they're not equipped to really play that way anyway.  They have huge, mashing OL, a capable but not fast QB, no game breaking speed at RB and huge leapy WRs that aren't quick, give or take a DPJ.

AlbanyBlue

November 7th, 2019 at 8:15 PM ^

I totally agree with Gattis being underwhelming at OC. Asking the OL to zone block is not something that worked. That being said, though, Shea is as much a problem as Gattis. In the pass game, he struggles with reads and misses obviously open receivers. He struggles to put passes in good spots for YAC. In the run game, he just can't (or won't) make the correct reads enough times for it to be effective.

There are other issues of course : TE blocking, drops, less-than-crisp route running. But Gattis and Shea are the top two. I was all over JH for being too run-heavy, but it's become clear that, with Shea's limitations (and, apparently, Dylan's as well), running is the way to go.

That should get us to 9-2. Unfortunately, it's also going to get us to 9-3, and probably 9-4.

imafreak1

November 7th, 2019 at 2:15 PM ^

The amount of stuff that Michigan opened the season with on offense that subsequently disappeared is mind bottling. Remember all those silly 2 QB plays?

By the looks from the outside, Gattis had a great deal to learn when he arrived. Maybe more than we or he realized. Fortunately, he seems to have learned much. At least, for now.

mgobaran

November 7th, 2019 at 2:18 PM ^

"Actual chili is stupid easy anyway"

  • Go to Colorado for Dried Chili
  • Slurry them (thats a made up word)
  • PORK?!
  • A dutch oven is farting under the blankets imo
  • That's like 7 hours of cooking