You cannot have a lame duck coach and expect a decent recruiting class
Most people here seem to be resigned to AT BEST a 6-7 win season this year. Virtually everybody is in agreement that RR deserves to at least finish out 2011 (albeit with a new DC).
The problem this creates though is that regardless of what happens in 2011, our recruiting class will go down the toilet. No top recruit is going to sign on to a program that is either
1. on the verge on firing the HC
2. or not confident enough to give him an extension.
So therefore, unlike the popular opinion that DB should wait out through 2011 before canning RR or singing him to an extension, I say it needs to be done now. IF you believe in him give him a four year extension (with a zero dollar buyout clause if you need) or can him right now and lets overpay Harbaugh.
I am personally fine with both options. I think if we hire Harbaugh, he is going to be very successful coach here not because he is phenomenally better than RR but because:
1. He has the pedigree that will keep the freep type wolves at bay.
2. He has a VERY decent set of talent on offense to build.
3. He is smart enough to go get top flight defensive coordinator talent to shore up our weakness.
November 1st, 2010 at 9:47 AM ^
No snark, I am genuinely interested in your take. I just need some more info. I agree 100% that he would be a good choice too, but um....why would he come?
November 1st, 2010 at 9:49 AM ^
despite the damage done to our program and our national brand over the past three years, we are still Michigan, a traditional super-power. We are still the winningest program of all time, and a team capable of "returning to glory" quickly under the proper leadership.
November 1st, 2010 at 9:53 AM ^
how'd that work out with the last coaching hire?
November 1st, 2010 at 10:00 AM ^
On the last hire we were one year removed from a 41-38 loss at Ohio State from going to the national championship and a run of 3 Big ten championships in the decade. I'd say we were in a significantly different position than we currently find ourselves.
November 1st, 2010 at 10:29 AM ^
And were still turned down twice before hiring RR
November 1st, 2010 at 10:01 AM ^
In my opinion, that is more about the hire than about coaching changes, in general. Also, I am not saying that we will be great in year 1 under Harbaugh or anyone else, but under RR, we are going nowhere fast.
Also, with RR, unfortunately it seemed like he was under a cloud from the minute he was hired. Fair or not (I think most of us agree that it was unfair), this has cast a shadow over his attempt to overhaul the program. At this point, however, it doesn't matter - many of us are not happy with his management of our beloved program.
November 1st, 2010 at 9:59 AM ^
our fanbase steers away from the "Returning to Glory" hype.
We're already looking at little too much like Notre Dame.
November 1st, 2010 at 10:49 AM ^
ND has had what, five coaches since Holtz left? We have a long ways to go to turn into ND.
November 1st, 2010 at 11:38 AM ^
Is a step in that direction. I honestly feel that part of Notre Dame's problem is that they have not had much coaching stability since Holtz; Charlie Weiss being an exception as he got five years. It's not a surprise that they are so inconsistent as a result; their program is constantly adjusting to new schemes and coaching styles.
Some people make arguments that Ezeh and Mouton's development was stunted b/c of having 3 different defensive coordinators, and I would think there is some truth to that. I'm not sure we want to start a precedent of changing coaches every 3 years; you can point to Saban and his quick start at Alabama but his recruiting methods would never fly at Michigan.
I wouldn't necessarily give up hope on Rodriguez being able to turn it around here. Ferentz's records in his first three seasons at Iowa were 1-10, 3-9, 7-5. We will probably finish with 6-7 wins this season, which is where I'm guessing most people pegged us in the pre-season. We are who we thought we would be; it's just that people got false optimism from our fast start.
As a side note, if Devin Gardner is our starter next year, expect a similar 6 win campaign. We haven't had a returning starter at QB since 2007; I would like to see one next year please.
November 1st, 2010 at 1:11 PM ^
This is hilarious.. notice how much you sound like a Domer?
November 1st, 2010 at 10:00 AM ^
we have to understand that hes our coach and we have been plagued with injuries this season on defense...were just impatient because its Michigan. Dont get me wrong Ive been really unset with the past couple season but there is huge progress here this year...we just need to chill out and see how the season plays out...we will be playing to top 10 teams to finish the season lets give the guy the rest of the season at least.
November 1st, 2010 at 9:47 AM ^
I'd advise you to pick up the phone and call right now, to avoid a long wait.
November 1st, 2010 at 9:56 AM ^
Your post is garbage. We get it. You love RR and anyone who says he should go is a fool. However, the facts favor the ones you oppose and you look like the fool.
November 1st, 2010 at 10:02 AM ^
I've got an idea!
Let's work as hard as possible to make it seem to outsiders that our program is in a complete state of disarray!
That's the winning ticket!!!
November 1st, 2010 at 10:04 AM ^
Once again you weigh in with your worthless critiques. Rather than mocking posters, why not come up with some original content that actually contains some tangible thoughts? Get a life, bro.
P.S. Latin is a dead language. Time to move on.
November 1st, 2010 at 10:07 AM ^
Drop the ad hominem.
(All inclusive to everyone posting in this thread, not just to the target of this reply.)
November 1st, 2010 at 11:48 AM ^
But there was a fantastic diary on Tackling Technique that got bumped, Is there anyway to move it back up? Much better than the latest diary.
November 1st, 2010 at 3:21 PM ^
My apologizes. I was responding to an ad hominen attack with one of my own and I see the error of my ways. Just please be sure to apply this rule evenly - I'm seeing way too many personal insults to well-reasoned opinions. Just my "two cents" worth. (Or maybe I'm just overly-sensitive this Monday morning.)
November 1st, 2010 at 10:26 AM ^
I was defending the OP. The 97.1 comment is far worse of a thing to say then what I typed. Although I have verbally attacked some posters with my inane thoughts I feel that most of the people who are defending the coaches are the ones spitting the bile. So in essence you are doing exactly as I was, albeit in a more appropriate manner.
November 1st, 2010 at 10:56 AM ^
...it is just rebuilding.
November 1st, 2010 at 9:47 AM ^
"Virtually everybody is in agreement that RR deserves to at least finish out 2011 (albeit with a new DC)?"
I am not sure who this "virtually everybody" that you are talking about is, but just about every person who I have spoken to since the PSU game (and many people prior to that) believes that RR does NOT deserve to get past the OSU game. I think that the overwhelming majority of fans at this point have had enough of seeing our beloved program fail to even compete with decent to good teams (of which PSU is not) and crumble once we hit the B10 experiment.
That said, I do think that you raise an excellent point. At this point the perception of RR in the media at large is that he is either a lame duck or will perpetually be on the hot seat. Under such a circumstance, recruiting is impossible and the pressure on this young team is increased significantly. I think that if DB believes that RR is not jot going to be here next year, he should probably act decisively as soon as possible and make a run at Harbaugh or some other qualified candidates.
November 1st, 2010 at 9:58 AM ^
I disagree with the thinking that Rodriguez should be fired at the end of the year. Do you all honestly think another head coach could have done more with this season? Everyone knows the defense sucks. But the team is 5-3! Do people not understand this fact? Two more wins and they end up at least 7-5 and in a decent bowl game. And, maybe most importantly, the offense is a sight to behold. Never has a Michigan offense been as exciting as this one. I, for one, am not anxious nor looking forward to losing that excitement.
November 1st, 2010 at 10:17 AM ^
And, maybe most importantly, the offense is a sight to behold.
This meme is getting a little tiring. I love our offense, and I love Denard, but the notion that our offense is some sort of unstoppable juggernaut simply isn't true. In each of the past three games we've fallen behind three scores early in the second half. If our offense really was as unstoppable as we all would like to believe, each of the last three games would have been high-scoring shootouts in which the team that had the ball last won (a la Indiana). Instead, it has struggled under the weight of a totally unhelpful defense, has worked in fits and spurts, and has played catch-up all second half of the last three contests. This is understandable, because we're still a young team offensively as well.
I think RR deserves another year because he's done such a good job with the offense. (I think GERG should be gone, and whomever comes in as DC should be given full control of the defensive scheme and coaching hires.) But while it has been effective, it is not yet Oregon (it can get there), and I'm not sure why we keep acting like it is. The performances in the last three games (500 yards against Iowa notwithstanding) suggest otherwise.
November 1st, 2010 at 10:22 AM ^
*high five*
November 1st, 2010 at 10:21 AM ^
Do you all honestly think another head coach could have done more with this season?
Yes, I do. I think any other coach would have a defense that didn't progressively get worse through the first 3 seasons. I think that an offensive genius coach hiring a new DC should allow the DC to pick his staff and scheme. I think in the 3rd year, we shouldn't be seeing 8 true freshmen getting significant playtime on defense. If your argument is that no coach can do more with how little we have, them my argument is that at this point he is a major reason that we have so little.
The team is 5-3, but the way they are playing, I don't think they beat Illinois and I'm not sure about Purdue. I think we get blown out by Wisconsin and OSU as they are going to be competing for BCS ranking to determine who goes to the Rose Bowl.
Do I think that RR needs to necessarily get fired? No, but I do think that we need to see a major shake up next year on the defensive side of the ball. Ideally, I'd see Gerg let go and the next DC has complete control over the defense including position coaches. I think that the only position coach to keep his job would be Bruce Tall. I'd also like to see a normal scheme. Bend don't break isn't saving us any points and is costing us time. Either get them off the field or let them score. At least that way, Denard can get an extra 4 drives to score.
November 1st, 2010 at 10:32 AM ^
You don't think that another coach could have done better this year? You don't think that another coach could have beaten a struggling Penn State team starting a walk-on QB in his first start? You don't think that another coach could be better than 4-16 in the Big Ten? Did you know that Ron Zook went to the Rose Bowl in his third year after taking over a completely ruined Illinos program? Did you know that in the three years following Gerry Dinardo Indiana had a higher winning percentage in the Big Ten than we have now? Did you know that Jim Harbaugh blew out USC in his third year and won eight games? Did you know that Pete Carroll and Bob Stoops took over programs in complete shambles and won BCS bowls in just their second year? Did you know that Kirk Frerentz won as many Big Ten games in his third season as Rodriguez has total? Did you know that Urban Meyer switched from a pro style to a spread offense and won a BCS bowl game in his second year at two different schools? Did you notice that Paul Johnson took over a poor Georgia Tech team, switched to the triple option without the benefit of four years of recruiting, and took his team to the BCS in his second year?
Do I honestly think another head coach could have done better? The real question to ask is -- could another head coach have possibly done worse? Would a Mike Debord team get shredded by a mediocre I-AA team or get humiliated in Happy Valley by a terrible offense starting its backup walk-on QB?
November 1st, 2010 at 10:39 AM ^
Do I think that you just won this issue? Yes.
November 1st, 2010 at 11:23 AM ^
Former walk-on. Sorry for the nitpick but the kid has a scholarship and is recognized by the team and the coaches as being a legitimately worthy QB. Who had quite a game. People talk like it was my grandma out there beating us.
November 1st, 2010 at 12:18 PM ^
Maybe I'm crazy for still being a Rodriguez supporter. If so, I'll seek medical attention. But I still believe that this team would have serious troubles regardless of the coach. Maybe the defense would be better, but I do not believe the offense would be nearly as good. So the two balance out, right? And, for me, watching this offense is so much more exciting than offensives of the past. I hate seeing them lose, but I love watching Denard and Co. And I have significantly reduced my frustration with the defense becausee, as I said on a different thread, I now fast-forward through all defensive possessions. Ignorance is bliss!
But maybe I'm just searching for excuses/reasons not to want to jump out of my 25-story window . . .
November 1st, 2010 at 12:52 PM ^
I don't think you are nuts to support RR, but I think you are nuts to not at least question whether he is going to be able to build a dominant team in the next 2-3 years. A losing record after 3 years is ridiculous, I don't care what he was handed by LC. I know this is what we expected before the season, in terms of wins and losses, but the way we lost to PSU is ridiculous and doesn't give me any faith that we win against Illinois (a team that has only lost to 3 1-loss teams all ranked in the top10 last week) or even Purdue.
It's not even just the defensive recruiting mess. WTF is Vincent Smith in on 3rd and short? Why are we only rushing 3 against a team that is going to run the ball and has a walk-on QB in his first start ever? Why are players like Demens stuck behind players like Ezeh? Why are we running out of the I-Form when our offense is built around using your QB to get you an extra blocker? Why haven't we shown any new looks on offense to spark some more big plays? These are all questions about coaching decisions that have little to do with attrition and young players and none of them have good answers.
November 1st, 2010 at 1:39 PM ^
You make at least 2 good points:
First, with respect to questioning Rodriguez. The critique is definitely valid, I just haven't given up on a winning season and a bowl game yet (not that everyone else has).
Second, the failure to get a first down on 3rd and Short caused me heart failure. I was so pissed at that call. Its not even Smith to me. It was the failure after having done the same thing several times this year. That is absolutely unacceptable. The offense is so exciting, why ever show the I-form? And if they do, why not put Will Campbell in at fullback or something crazy like that?
November 1st, 2010 at 10:10 AM ^
Just like I don't know about the "virtually everybody" assessment, even that's off base. I'm not sure how easy it is to win against top 25-50 teams with converted WRs playing defense and true freshman corners.
Considering this offense is still putting up winnable numbers on offense in conference, it shows that RichRod does not turn stupid once October hits. But what has been shown is that his defense is porous and would be abused in conference play. Special teams were a concern and it showed on the booted kick return. Everything has painfully gone according to script. They have won the games they should have, and lost the games that were toss ups at best.
I am a believer that a coach should be able to coach through their first recruiting class' graduation as long as you can see some improvement. The offense is there and could be scary next year without any coaching changes. The defense should be better with hopefully some bowl practices and another offseason of experience.
November 1st, 2010 at 10:19 AM ^
Penn state, starting a walk-on QB and playing with half of their team either injured or coming off of major injuries, with Michigan coming off of a bye week to rest and game plan, was NOT a game that was a "toss up at best."
November 1st, 2010 at 11:07 AM ^
So let's leave all the walk-on QB crap alone. It's silly and UM fans should be the first to understand that.
And any game with our defense is going to be a toss up unless it's an inferior team. I'm not playing a senseless blame game. But a road game in conference is still a toss up, especially when that team has a running back who's about to eclipse the school rushing record.
The main injuries were on their defensive side and we put up 31 points. We potentially left points on the field due to Denard getting hurt at the end of the 1st qtr and we follow that up with a false start. Again people need to remember what we did do right in that game.
And for all the bye week love, stats show the winning percentage about 50% coming off a bye week, nothing spectacular.
Again, not trying to lay blame anywhere, but I'm just pointing out the fact that without a healthy Martin, that eliminates our biggest strength on defense. And our offense produced enough points to show that even with the kick return blunder, some 3rd down stops would have placed the game in our favor.
November 1st, 2010 at 1:32 PM ^
November 1st, 2010 at 4:26 PM ^
Were they stellar? No. Was Griese getting offers from Miami, Florida State or USC? No. Fact remains that he started over scholarship guys in Dreisbach and Brady because he was the best at managing the offense. That's all McGloin did. Plus McGloin almost won the job over Rob Bolden in fall camp. The same Bolden that had everyone thinking PSU was a top 25 team before their team started breaking apart.
And geez, one of our starting safeties was a walk-on. People need to stop the whole "walk-on" thing as if walk-ons should be awful guys who get punished on the scout team. Not everyone sucks like Rudy.
November 1st, 2010 at 9:47 AM ^
I don't think the coach is a lame duck. He will be forced to fire the entire defensive staff going into next year, or he will not be back. Offensively we are good going forward. Changing the head coach would mean the offense would look like the defense with all the transfers. I would give Rich Rod a one year extension at the end of the year. At the end of next year, if it hasn't turned around, then fire everyone.
November 1st, 2010 at 9:58 AM ^
He's not going to fire Gibson (they're best friends or something)... nor Tall for that matter. RR is an extremely loyal and stubborn man. If it comes down to firing the defensive staff or losing his job I'd bet on RR walking. Now I think he'd fire GERG without a second thought especially if Casteel becomes available. But Gibson is his personal cross to bear and his friendship with him is probably going to cost him his job at Michigan.
Edit: Also, after watching Gibby's secondary it is becoming more clear why Warren took his chances with the NFL Draft.
November 1st, 2010 at 10:25 AM ^
Unfortunately, I agree with this. I am just hoping I am wrong.
November 1st, 2010 at 11:34 AM ^
Unfortunately, I agree with your agreement.
November 1st, 2010 at 9:56 AM ^
Not trying to be snarky, but what you are suggesting would not work.
We are going to fire the entire D staff. (note, I agree that GERG and co need to go). So we will be running a new D scheme, with young players getting to learn a new staff. Oh, and recruiting will suffer because the current staff has been out on the trail making relationships. Oh, and there mey be further decommits, as playeys sense a sinking ship and want to get out and have a decent college football experience away from the chaos.
So with the new D staff, we are almost certain to have another crappy D year, and another terrible recruiting class.
Now let's turn to the team in general. With another crappy D year, even if the offense continues to improve and continues to succeed (although they still have yet to score a bunch of points against a real D, but that is for another topic), we will continue to struggle against MSU, and perhaps continue to lose many in conference games. Under your proposal, this would lead to RR getting fired at the end of 2011.
So, instead of just going through the pain this offseason and building from there, you are setting up a situation where 2011 turns into another lost year. I say that it is obvious that RR is not going to get it done here - whether it is his fault, the fault of the decimated defense, the fault of GERG or the fault of Lloyd's recruiting fall of is beyond the scope of this post). We need to make a move to save our program before we turn into ND - a formerly relevant program.
November 1st, 2010 at 9:57 AM ^
Giving a HC a 1 year extension is as good as the dreaded "Vote of Confidence".
November 1st, 2010 at 10:12 AM ^
He has 1 year left plus a 1 year extension gives him two years to work with. I think it sends the message we have some faith in Rich, but it also says things need to improve quickly.
November 1st, 2010 at 9:51 AM ^
Who said we have a lame duck HC or for that matter a lame duck DC? You? You don't have any sway over who coaches our team.
November 1st, 2010 at 10:07 AM ^
This line of discussion is worse than uninformed people critiquing the play-calling (armchair quarterbacking). No one has any idea of what goes into choosing/changing a head coach. If anything, posts about firing Rodriguez simply expose ignorance and its sad to read.
November 1st, 2010 at 9:53 AM ^
I'm not sure that's true. Weis brought in the 14th best class according to rivals and he was basically in the same position as RR. The problem we are going to have that ND didn't is that we're on the verge of maybe doing a complete switch again as far as offense/defense is concerned. That's our problem. We have a bunch of kids who want to play in RR's spread waiting to see what happens with us this year and next year and if RR does fail and gets fired we're likely going to find a coach that doesn't run this system and therefore these kids wouldn't want to play for us; especially if we go after someone like Harbaugh who's teams are like the complete opposite of ours.
November 1st, 2010 at 9:56 AM ^
Just because all of you say we are firing coaches does not mean we are firing coaches. I would be shocked if we lost RR and I would be equally shocked if GERG was let go before the end of the season.
November 1st, 2010 at 9:58 AM ^
this is true. I was speaking more hypothetically since that is how I read the OP. RR could still pull off some upsets and be just fine. But we have to be honest here, it isn't looking as good as it was last week prior to the PSU game.
November 1st, 2010 at 10:32 AM ^
It isn't? We still have 4 games to play and we only NEED to win 1 and that is just to get to some random number some dumbass ESPN talking head has told the world that we need to win in order to keep our coach. They don't know shit. Either way we need to win 25% of our remaining games to get a bowl and much need practice. I like those odds.