What is state of OL?
Like many of you, I am looking forward to more real news about football. I am particularly curious about the current state of the OL, given Drevno's (and Harbaugh's) track record. The current two deep shows:
| LT | M. Cole | L. Tuley-Tillmann | G. Newsome |
| LG | K. Kalis | D. Dawson | D. Samuelson |
| C | G. Glasgow | P. Kugler | |
| RG | B. Braden |
B. Bars |
J. Runyan |
| RT | E. Magnuson | J. Bushell-Beatty |
How accurate is this? With the commitment palooza, there have been rumblings of medicals and attrition, and I have heard rumors of some of this coming on the OL. Are announcements like this made at any time, or at the beginning of practice in August, or the beginning of the season?
And with commitments from Ben Bredeson, Michael Onwenu, Eric Swenson, and Michigan in the running for Terrance Davis, there is obviously a strong emphasis on bringing in solid OL recruits. I'm thrilled to see this, and also wonder if looking to bring in 4 or 5 on the OL portends attrition on the line. Anyone who can shed light would be greatly appreciated. We want road graders to help both our running backs, and to give time for the passing game to get stronger.
I think they are all in Michigan....
Great post. State of MI. That's good.
Getting back to my OP, I have been concerned about the OL for some time. I still blame the terrible line recruiting under RR for setting us back a long time. The line makes QB's and RB's look good (or conversely, very bad.) The running game may have improved a bit from 2013 to 2014, but not hugely. And I get the feeling that Gardner was running scared much of the year.
I really haven't heard much of anything on Samuelson or Bars. But, to tell you the truth, I also haven't heard much about Fox, Tuley-Tillman, Dawson, or Kugler. (Let alone the redshirt freshmen.) I'd love to see several really take a big stride forward, and push the starters. As mentioned by others, it really helps to have competition, and there hasn't been much.
Are they all in for Michigan?
Rumblings of all or most 5th yr seniors being given a firm handshake FYI.
If my math is right, the 5th year guys in 2016 would be the 2012 class of OL. The dudes in that group: Braden, Bars, Kalis, Magnuson.
Unless things shake up a lot, I think three of those guys will be strongly in the mix for a starting spot this year and next, so the only feasible firm handshake type right now would be Bars. That could change if some of these guys drop off, but I imagine they wouldn't get rid of them if they are firmly in the top 7 OL
Not sure if the original comment was addressing only OL, but I guess there are a few others if you include the entire 2012 class (Gant, Strobel, TRich)...but again, these dudes could all get some PT and do well this year, so all that talk is probably premature
Bars would make sense to not get a 5th year, and Braden might make sense if the younger guys really come along. But either way if there is one position where 5th year seniors can really make a huge impact it is offensive line so I have a hard time imagining these coaches dumping very many, if any of them.
of not returning 5th year seniors on the OL. For one thing, we are probably thinnest there in regards to depth. And the 5th year is usually a linemen's most productive. To not returned players in this unit for the sake of unproven freshmen, which typically get redshirted, seems counter productive.
I could see not returned 5th year players in other positions, but it would be suprising if the staff didn't what lineman back in what is their peak year.
It happens all the time. We could go back through the Lloyd Carr years (and prior) and find lots of examples, too. Blake Bars is only 281 lbs. in his fourth year of college. I don't think many linemen are going to play at Michigan who are under roughly 300 lbs., let alone 19 pounds under.
And not returning one 5th year offensive lineman that won't be on the three deep is understandable. I was referring to the post someone made that implied all of the 5th year offensive lineman wouldn't be asked back. That is what I meant when i said it would seem counter productive, espeicially when a few of them should start this season. Not asking Glasgow back for instinct would leave us with one real option at center (Kugler), others might work at the position, but we would be extremely thin there.
Oh...you're talking about *that.* Yeah, that was a silly comment.
I've been extremely surprised by the lack of weight gain of some of Michigan's offensive lineman. I expected Kalis to be about 320 right now but he's going backward. He's down to 292. Cole is 287 now, which is just too small. Magnuson is 296 and should be sitting around 315 if he wants to be an effective right tackle. Are they just not trying to bulk these guys up? Was Hoke keeping them light for some reason I haven't read yet? I'd have to imagine Harbaugh will be telling most of them to start eating an extra cheeseburger or 2 as he has proven he likes big maulers for his offensive line.
I think we'll see some weight gains between the spring weights and what's on the fall roster. But yeah, I expected our line to be bigger by 2015.
2015 --
2016 --
Who would have thought from that list the Glasgow's and Willie Henry would be the best players over their career's.
Can you clarify (if you know or can) - that would mean the following OL would not be here for a fifth year - Kalis, Braden, Bars and Magnuson, who are supposed to be 2 or 3 members of the line this year. It would also leave Dawson, Samuelson and a freshman Bredeson (and if he plays offense a freshman Onwenu) as the only guards on the roster.
We'll see what happens when all is said and done, but it's really hard to to imagine, from an someone with no insider information, that all of these guys won't get 5th years. If Kalis and Magnuson are starting, I can't see this happening unless they become NFL ready. I could see this happening to the non-starters who the staff feels won't start their senior year and have an equally caliber backup.
Somehow I don't think Kyle Kalis, Ben Braden, Erik Magnuson, and Blake Bars are all - or even mostly - going to be shoved out the door.
Not to dance on the prior coach's legacy, but some may view it is as that (sorry not my intention), but he kept telling us that the team was very young. And the most glaring weakness on the team last year, IMO, was the OL as that will dictate how your QB and RBs play, which was relatively weak. But with so many now potential 5th years, why did not anyone call him out on this topic?
The offensive line was not the most glaring weakness. Not even close. I think people perceived that because Gardner went downhill and because the running backs played so horribly.
I disagree. The offensive line was bad. Not as bad as in 2013, but still bad.
When the quarterbacks and all the running backs are not having much success, I think that's a pretty good indicator that the OL isn't getting the job done. It's either that or Doug Nussmeier (who has done well elsewhere) and Fred Jackson (who had done well previously) suddenly forgot how to coach.
I think Fred Jackson forgot how to coach, but it certainly was not sudden.
It must have been fairly sudden, since Fitzgerald Toussaint averaged 5.6 yards/carry and ran for over 1,000 yards in 2011.
Get outta here with all your fancy stats.
The team as a whole has sucked for the better part of 2008-2014. I'm not sure that the running game falls on the shoulders of Fred Jackson, not when Sheridan/Threet/Forcier account for two years of that, not when a nearly crippled Devin Gardner accounts for two years of that, and not when an all-run-no-throw QB like Denard Robinson accounts for the intervening years. And hey, the OL was like an all-time worst squad during the 2013 season, but I guess that must be Fred Jackson's fault, too.
Can we at least agree that 2013 and 2014 don't really count since the OL was terrible?
Anyway, going back to the beginning of the post-Hart era:
2008 (with a crappy QB duo/new system): Minor, McGuffie, Shaw, Brown all averaged between 4.12 and 5.17 yards/carry
2009: No RB had a bad year. It ranged from Cox (8.69 yards/carry) to Grady (8.0) to Brown (5.93) to Smith (5.75) to Minor (5.23) to Shaw (4.40)
2010: No RB had a bad year. They averaged between 4.08 yards/carry (Hopkins) to 10.88 yards/carry (Toussaint)
2011: Toussaint (over 1,000 yards, 5.6 yards/carry)
2012: Admittedly a down year but the numbers weren't absolutely horrid (Toussaint averaged 3.95, Rawls 4.25, Hayes 4.61, Smith 2.47).
So I don't agree with your conclusion. We've had good running back performances over the years. Maybe not Heisman-worthy, and it's been a committee of guys, but the numbers have been solid for the most part.
The running game seemed to have pretty good success once Drake started seeing a lot of time. Heck, I think even Smith ran for 100+ against Northwestern.
By no means am I saying the oline was a strength but by the end of the year I didn't see it as a very big weakness. It would have been nice to see what the line looked like all with Drake as the running back. I'm probably one of the few on this board that doesn't think that highly of either Green or Smith (for various reasons).
As I said elsewhere, the line got better throughout the year. But they were 3-5 after two-thirds of the season. Michigan averaged less than 3.3 yards/carry against Ohio State, Michigan State, Penn State, Notre Dame, Utah, and Minnesota during the year. Regardless of improvement, you shouldn't have that many terrible performances. The line was bad overall.
I think we're just talking about semantics now.
The biggest reason Gardner went "downhill" and it was even worse when his 5-star sophomore backup came in was....the OL.
The biggest reason multiple RBs, most of them very well regarded recruits, struggled to get pas the line of scrimmage and "played horribly" was....the OL.
That doesn't mean the guys on the OL were bad players per se, but the unit as a whole was not effective under the previous coaching staff. We all hope it will be better with the new staff, especially with an added year of experience, training, and conditioning.
Drake Johnson didn't seem to have that much trouble getting past the line of scrimmage when he got opportunities to play. Did the oline just magically improve once Drake started getting carries or was Drake the only running back that was able to find the holes the oline was creating?
Like I mentioned above, I'm not saying the oline was a strength but the running game seemed to get better once Johnson started getting carries.
Derrick Green was Michigan's leading rusher until he got hurt. He averaged 5.74 yards/carry, so it's not like Drake Johnson (6.02 yards/carry) blew him out of the water. De'Veon Smith averaged 4.81.
Against P5 opponents -
Derrick Green: 45 carries, 164 yards, 3.6 ypc, 0TD
Drake Johnson: 57 carries, 333 yards, 5.8 ypc, 4TD
De'Veon Smith: 91 carries, 360 yards, 4 ypc, 4TD
Against non-P5 opponents:
Derrick Green: 37 carries, 307 yards, 8.3 ypc, 3TD
Drake Johnson: 3 carries, 28 yards, 9.3 ypc, 0TD
De'Veon Smith: 17 carries, 159 yards, 9.3 ypc, 2TD
Yep...and when the offensive line improved toward the end of the season, Green had a broken collarbone.
He also gained the great majority of his yards against crap comptetition.
Against common opponents -
Derrick Green: 82 carries, 471 yards, 5.7ypc, 3TD
De'Veon Smith: 47 carries, 282 yards, 6.0ypc, 4TD
Against common opponents -
De'Veon Smith: 49 carries, 213 yards, 4.3 ypc, 2TD
Drake Johnson: 60 carries, 361 yards, 6.0ypc, 4TD
"He also gained the great majority of his yards against crap comptetition."
Drake Johnson had 244 of his 361 yards against Appalachian State, Indiana, and Maryland.
De'Veon Smith had 308 of his 519 yards against Appalachian State, Indiana, Maryland, and Northwestern. All of those teams were #72 or worse against the run except for ASU, which was #45.
I'm not arguing that any one of these backs is great. I simply said that Green was Michigan's leading rusher until he got hurt.
All of our backs had the great majority of the yards against pretty awful competition:
Rushing S&P+
Appalachian St. #98
Notre Dame #66
Miami (OH) #117
Utah #50
Minnesota #36
Rutgers #83
Penn. St. #5
MSU #11
Indiana #70
Northwestern #47
Marylan #77
OSU #31
I thought Green looked like he was on his way to his best performance of the year when he broke his collarbone. He was finding holes and breaking tackles that day IIRC.
So the OL was not the problem, not even close you say, then what was the problem and where did the OL rank in terms of underperformance? And since I trust Harbaugh, he kept Mattison, but got rid of Darrell Funk - among others.
Well, people *started* to call him out, but it wasn't a very strong argument either way.
The potential fifth years we're discussing are for the 2016 season, though. The four guys mentioned above are redshirt juniors here in 2015. So last year as redshirt sophomores, they were still pretty young.
But the OL was pretty young, even last year. We had a true frosh, three sophomores and a junior starting. That's pretty young.