UM vs OSU Talent
I'm intrigued by a few of the posters on the interview with Michael Citro who noted or didn't like that OSU fans seem to have the opinion that UM has inferior talent team-wide than the Buckeyes. From your view, how do you think UM and OSU stack up to each other by position group? My thoughts:
QB = OSU>UM (Even with any perceived weaknesses, Braxton is above any UM QB by a comfortable margin)
RB = OSU>UM (Elliott, Dunn, and Smith have all played well when they've had snaps. UM's OL may have held back the RBs last year, but at this point I can't say I'd take any of UM's backs over those 3)
OL = OSU>UM (After watching UM's OL this spring, I'll take OSU's even with the new starters)
WR = wash (A number of OSU fans will argue this, but our talent is young and unproven. Until they do it on the field I can't say they are better. I'll say Smith/Wilson = Funchess for now. After him UM is also unproven, but talented and athletic as well)
DL = OSU>>>UM (OSU has one of the top 2 or 3 DLs in the nation)
*LB = UM>OSU *Edited after good counter arguments* (With pre-injury Ryan, I would've said advantage UM. But he wasn't quite the same after coming back last year and until he shows that he's fully back, I can't give him a demonstrative edge. I also don't like the move to the middle. Perry will be entering his third year as a starter and he was solid last year for OSU. After that, I consider both teams to be lacking in star power for now)
*CB = UM>OSU *Edited after good counter arguments* (I was tempted to give OSU the edge because I think Grant is better than any corner UM has, but that is arguable. OSU has a lot of young talent and size, but it's unproven. From an outsider's perspective, it seems UM has played multiple guys with almost the same results year after year and none of their names stick out to me)
S = OSU > UM (I think OSU has more pure talent, but the lack of experience is notable. Powell was solid as a starter last year and brings elite size and good athleticism. Bell was good in his first start as a true freshman and the coaches seem to love him. Burrows is a ridiculous athlete and Tanner is a solid veteran as backups. UM seems to only have 1 identified starting safety for now. What is going on with Thomas? Peppers seems like a good bet, but who knows until he gets on campus)
Specialists = OSU>UM (Cameron Johnston was one of the better punters in the country last year. I expect him to be in All-American consideration as a sophomore. Hagerup is back after being held out a year, but never wowed me. Both teams are replacing starting kickers. Wile has some experience and is 5/8 on FGs. Due to that, he gets a slight edge over our freshman Nuernberger)
LB could easily swing UM's way once the season starts. WR could as well. I think CB easily swings OSU's way unless Peppers ends up playing a CB and lives up to his talent right away.
Feel free to rip it apart, but please give me justifications. I'm trying to get a clear, unbiased view of the two rosters and you all are obviously more knowledgeable about UM's than I am.
Yup. Miller is not very good at throwing the football. I think he is borderline terrible. Each year he has been there we've heard reports that he has improved or is working hard, but each year I'm "meh" when it comes to Miller. Good college QB, not NFL.
He has deficiencies but to say he is borderline terrible is quite a stretch. He has increased his completion percentage at least 4 points each year and completed 63.5% last year. He also threw for over 2,000 yards, and 24 TDs to 7 picks. He is certainly a better passer now than he was when he was a true freshman. Gardner is a better passer but Miller is far from a terrible one (see: Joe Bauserman).
.................(sigh)
.....Did I miss something?
Damn.. My bad. That's a tough GIF to swallow.
OP, you got to hell. its hump day and your fu*ing my swag up.
Good grief! If you're going to tell someone to go to hell, at least be literate when you do so.
I'm sorry you are unable to speak the language of the younger generation...How is the AOL connection in Alasa?
is slowly closing between OSU and MIchigan. In 2011 it was very wide. Hoke's first two recruitng classes were excellent and the current class is good. The real question will be can UM coaches get the maximum out of the potential talent we have on the team. At this time I will have to give them an incomplete, since the talent is so young. But over the next couple years we better see much better play on the field or our coaches will get an F and the boot!
I have to ask the question, based on your last sentence... how long does Hoke have before being fired and what is the breaking point? Is it two more years without a Big Ten title or something more along the lines of 2 more years of 7-5 or worse? Really, what does Michigan's record need to be for him to keep the job.
Hoke will get through 2015, unless he finishes below .500 this season. Most are expecting a B1G title in 2015 but I would say much improved play and at least 9 wins. He will need to beat MSU or OSU at home, hopefully both! But I cannot rule out a close loss in one of those games, you never know how one bad play may kill your chances in a close game.
I think this season we will win 8 or 9 games and pull an upset on the road against one our big three rivals, MSU, OSU or ND. The team should be playing much better by the end of the season. I think the OSU vs Michigan game will be another barn burner!
Hoke still has the potential to be a good coach here. I would have preferred Jim Harbaugh as coach and he would have been a great coach for Michigan! But he wanted an NFL gig!
Maybe. It depends on how this season goes IMO. I've got us for 9-3 which would certainly fuel optimism for 2015 and would stabalize the masses. But if we go 7-5 that means we've not only most likely lost to the "Big 3" rivals on the road - it also means we've lost a couple of more games to teams with a far lesser talent base. That could also lead to lots of pissed off fans, empty seats and a loud clammoring for Brandon to do "something" to fix things. Not sure if Brady could survive that.
youth card if this season goes much like last season. I'm sure Brandon will have him fire Funk if the line does not improve and Hoke will be on the hot seat for 2015. However, expectations will be very high for 2015, while breaking in a new QB. I agree, Hoke needs to have a solid season in 2014 to avoid the huge pressure he will face in 2015. I think we will upset MSU on the road this season but lose to a team we should beat, like PSU! If he can go 9-3 and win his bowl game then I think he will do well in 2015.
Just what I want to see on a Wednesday morning/afternoon, a Buckeye telling me how much better he thinks Ohio State is than Michigan.
Being one of those posters who mentioned talent yesterday, my logic was much simpler than doing a side-by-side comparison by position. I like that approach and do disagree with some of your analysis, but I'll say no more with that. Yesterday, I was simply thinking along the lines of the UM roster has finally been replenished following RR class(s) attrition. No question, RR brought in talent (i.e. Denard, Lewan), but his classes were never strong top to bottom, IMO and we could never accumulate any roster depth. Now, finally, I feel like we have talent depth at each position. Not all, but most positions are young and inexperienced; however, that doesn't change the fact that we have size, speed, and roster with a strong recruiting petigree that can compete with an Ohio roster with a similar talent level.
real problem was player retention. Very few upper class-men the last couple years. I think coach Hoke and staff knew this void was coming but thought the young kids may play up enough but the interior OL struggled due to their youth. Youth will not be a problem by 2015. If play does not dramatically improve it will be all on the coaches!
But this is exactly the kind of discussion I come to message boards for. I honestly can't understand why anyone would downvote you.
Rob
I 'preciate it.
I would not waste my time on an OSU blog! But to each their own!
Size issue.
Why is the OP being downvoted? Pretty simple really...
First, let me start by conceding that Ohio has quite a bit more talent than does Michigan on the current rosters. Recruiting rankings and records both prove this out.
But I do have a few quibbles with your list:
- QB - Even from a pure talent perspective, I'm not sure this is cut and dried. While Braxton is a Denard-like athlete with the ability to break a big run every time he has the football, Devin's passing skills are far better than Braxton's (who is a system quarterback). And DG is no slouch as a runner. I think, talent-wise, this is a wash, but Braxton's system has made him the more impactful performer.
- LB - This is not a wash. Michigan has the advantage here. Shazier has moved on to the NFL, leaving behind a couple of pretty good players that have not demonstrated proven production. Michigan returns ALL of its depth chart save Cam Gordon, and under-utilized back-up who was a converted safety. Both Desmond Morgan and JRIII had more tackles and more tackles per game than any Buckeye LB, and Ryan was six months removed from a devastating injury. Even if Ryan doesn't come back into his 2012 form, our group is better than yours.
- CB - This is not a wash. Blake Countess and Ramon Taylor combined for 10 INTs last season. You lost your most talented CB in Roby; we return ALL of our CBs, and add Jibrill Peppers, who is probably the most talented player in either team's secondary (we'll see if that translates to production). But as good as Countess and Taylor were, they may be getting passed by true sophomores Jordan Lewis and Channing Stribling. I would take our CBs over yours. I think you have some nice players, but they don't tackle well and didn't cover very well last year either. They may be physically gifted, but talent is the ability to turn athleticism into production.
Other than that, I think you're on point, and I definitely agree that OSU has a more talented roster overall.
EDIT - The argument that most fans think Braxton is better is meaningless. Fans are mostly idiots with little knowledge of anything they don't see on ESPN. Before NFL draft talk, my bet is that 95% of college football fans would have said their QB was more talented than Blake Bortles. DG has been handicapped by system and his O-Line...Braxton has been gifted with the best possible coach for his talents and great blocking. This is not a no-brainer.
to back up my earlier statement that I disagreed with some of Denver's conclusions, then you wrote my thoughts down for me. Upvote for doing it better than me, minor internal concern that you're reading my mind from a distance.
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Yes, that last thing was about chipotle flavored mayo.
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And Kate Upton.
LUNCHTIME!
Rob
Lunchtime, indeed. Hopefully, lunch3times.
This is exactly the kind of post I was hoping for. I had forgotten about all of UM's LBs and the production from Countess and Taylor. Alright, you've convinced me, I'll call both of those for UM and edit my OP.
The QB spot, I'm still in disagreement. I think UM fans underate Braxton as a passer. He isn't Manning or Brady, but he's made huge strides since his freshman year. Sure part of that is because his running ability opens up opportunites, but that's part of his overall package. And I can't penalize him for having a better RB and OL than Gardner. Everything people say about Gardner is somewhat a "what if?" because with his OL we haven't been able to see him really put it together. That doesn't mean I'm going to assume he would be the outright best QB in the Big Ten, though.
You can't penalize him, but you have to admit that it's tough to normalize the comparison when the supporting cast for both players has been so drastically different in terms of performance the previous season. I think the true litmus test for comparing talent has to be if you could swap one group with the other team's, would you, and then you have your answer.
If you could swap OSU's linebacking corp with Michigan's this season, would you? Your answer is probably yes, so advantage Michigan. If Michigan could swap OSU's DL with their own, would we. Again, the objective answer is probably yes, so advantage OSU.
I think I can objectively say that I would not swap Miller for Gardner if given the choice and I'd make the case that OSU's offense might be better off with a guy who runs less, yet still can use his legs to get out of trouble, but has a better, more accurate arm. The point is debatable, and the margin is not wide for either side of the argument, but I still like Gardner more than Miller at QB.
I absolutely agree that Gardner could thrive in OSU's system. The play calling would be different and it would be interesting to see if the OSU WRs would be up to the task because you have to think more passing plays and less read option would be called.
On the flip side, I don't think any QB was going to thrive for Borges last year. End of the day, I like Braxton better for our system. He brings an X-Factor that opposing defenses have to account for that I don't think Gardner can bring. We'll never know.
I'm certainly not suggesting that DG is clearly the more talented player. Miller may very well be more talented. But circumstances have been tilted in Miller's favor, and not in a small way. DG has demonstrated passing ability that Miller will never have. Let's be honest, if Miller were a good passer, his NFL draft grade would have him out of college this year.
Again, Miller is a great player. I'm not arguing against that. But DG, talent-wise, has demonstrated a skillset as a passer that Miller will never have. This season will be Gardner's final chance to prove that talent, but last year he put up the second-highest passing total for a U-M QB in history, behind an offensive line that often closely resembled pylons. He also set the record for passing yardage in a game, not just for U-M, but for the B1G. He is really, really talented.
My point is that this one is close--very close--and I think it's too close to call.
In the end that is all that really matters!
Almost all the positions are a wash and extremely close and could go either way minus the lines. I think OSU has a clear advantage on both lines. The caveot is that the talent itself is really fairly equal, it's the experience edge and seniority edge that OSU has. If all of UM's o-line and d-line players were jr/sr like OSU's are then I'd that position would be a wash too.
OSU has 1 point more talent...and i find it laughable you had OSU better at RB because at BEST its a wash
It's unfortunate, but OSU is so far ahead of Michigan talent-wise. We are still a few years away from being REALLY good and that is assuming these high profile recruits pan out.
Either they over evaluated the talent potential or they failed to coach the talent to its potential. It is not time to judge. The judgement season will be 2015!
So there's that.
So you can all admit that Ohio State has more talent than UM, correct? That was the question. I read through about 90 comments before skipping to the end. Here we go. Based off talent and depth.
QBs - Wash
RBs - Ohio State (by a landslide)
WRs- Ohio State
TEs - UM (I count Funchess here at TE)
OL - Wash (remember, we are going off talent)
DL - Ohio State
LBs - UM, for now.
CBs - UM
Safeties - OSU
Special Teams - OSU because of Johnston.
Head Coach - Do I really need to say?
Offensive Coordinator - Wash
Defensive Coordinator - UM