Thoughts on Hoke's "True Fans" comments:
Is it fair to say that most of Michigan's fanbase, whether "true" or "untrue" fans (whatever that means exactly, I'm not sure), believe in the student athletes? I think its just that many are having doubts about whether to believe in the guys wearing the polos on the sidelines....particularlly the guy in charge...
I think Michigan has some talented players on their team.....[also think its completely dumb to go after players on Twitter.....], and I believe in them.
[EDIT OP - I am not suggesting that I'm convinced that Hoke needs to get fired/quit/Hadened .... I'm saying the fanbase is blaming him, not the kids....]
Hoke's comment:
"If they (fans) are true fans," Hoke said. "They will keep believing in these kids. If they're not (true fans), they won't."
http://michigan.247sports.com/Bolt/Hokes-Message-To-Michigan-Fans-30995583
September 8th, 2014 at 1:16 PM ^
If you are a true Michigan man you step down today, if you're not then you won't.
Also, I am still rooting for the kids. Nobody deserves to be handicapped the way they have been by their coaching staff.
September 8th, 2014 at 1:42 PM ^
Why is it ok for Hoke to question my fandom? while I am not allowed to question his coaching? I am there every Saturday, paying my money, cheering on his ill prepared charges. Hoping for the best but knowing what we will get as I have seen it week in and week out for 3+ years.
Neg away, but I guarantee that over the last 3 years I have been a way better fan than he has been a coach.
September 8th, 2014 at 2:03 PM ^
September 8th, 2014 at 2:22 PM ^
That isn't really the point. He made a ridiculous comment that I matched in ridiculousness for the point of illustrating its ridiculousness.
Still, since you asked.
1. Mattison or Nuss would be in charge, not Hoke.
2. Brandon would have a long time to openly talk to whoever he wanted to in order to upgrade our head coach.
3, It would give me as a season ticket holder, alum, fan a reason to plunk down a couple grand for next year's tickets with the hope that we may actually get better when everything I have seen over the past three years says that if a change isn't made we will not. No I will not plunk my money down until later, but I would rather not spend the rest of the year rooting for the kids to win only to feel that sense of dread that rolling up Miami, Utah, Rutgers, Maryland, Minnesota, Indy, NW brings back a guy who I know can't beat OSU or MSU.
September 8th, 2014 at 5:30 PM ^
Here's my take. If Hoke stepped down today, David Brandon would appoint himself head coach, since he is sorta the de facto head coach anyway. The results would pretty much be the same.
Seriously, though, this could still be a good season. Or it could suck. Michigan's style of football depends on having superior personnel compared to the other team. It's a matter of finding out where their superior personnel threshold is: the point where they no longer out-personnel the other team.
Is it Utah? Maryland? Penn State? Can they somwhow out-personnel Sparty and Ohio Sate this year? So far, the threshold is ND, who may turn out to be a really good team this year.
A loss to Utah would definitely turn up the heat. I don't know if I would even want to read MGB. that week.
September 8th, 2014 at 9:42 PM ^
September 8th, 2014 at 2:28 PM ^
It would give us three extra months to find a coach that is actually competent.
Now - we might fail, and get a bad coach - but we've already got one of those.
Could things get worse changing coaches? Yep. Will things get better if we don't change coaches? Nope.
September 8th, 2014 at 3:37 PM ^
Think about how much different things could have been since 2007 if the A.D. had done what any sensible "head of a successful" corporation would have done after the clearly unacceptable result of The Horror and sacked Carr on the spot.
September 8th, 2014 at 3:42 PM ^
Michigan might well have become the single least desirable job in college football. Not even Texas Tech fires a long-time coach one game into his final season before retirement.
Otherwise, what would have changed? Martin already knew Carr was retiring, had known for over nine months. He didn't have to fire him to start his coaching search. If it was necessary, or even desirable, to make it publicly known there was an easy way to do that.
September 8th, 2014 at 4:54 PM ^
when did he announce his retirement? i thought it was after we lost to oregon that year, not after the horror. also, i think firing Lloyd might have made a difference... aren't there some suspicions that his behind the scenes activities during the coaching search/richrod tenure were detrimental to the program (i think this was implied in John Bacon's "Third and Out" BUT i might be wrong), and firing him might have mitigated that? of course, hindsight is 20/20.
September 8th, 2014 at 5:01 PM ^
Martin and MSC talked him into coming back for one last year. It would have been extremely odd for Martin to fire a man after one game who he'd just talked into coming back for one more season.
The formal announcement came after the OSU game, not after Oregon.
As for the other allegations, his "detrimental" activities during the coaching search included reaching out to Rodriguez to encourage him to throw his hat in the ring. You can decide if that was something you wish had been mitigated.
September 8th, 2014 at 5:20 PM ^
Not trying to revive this old debate, sorry if I struck a nerve as it's not something that I care much about, but I did read "Three and Out" a while ago and, perhaps my memory is fading, but I feel like Bacon had described some detrimental activities aside from what you are citing (i.e., "reaching out to Rodriguez to encourage him to throw his hat in the ring").
September 8th, 2014 at 5:55 PM ^
Yes he did, although Bacon's interpretation of some of the earlier of those scenes doesn't quite square with the fact that RR was Carr's idea in the first place, or with their public appearances together after the hiring (remember when they showed up at a basketball game together?). There's another interpretation that does, and that fits Bacon's description of those events just as well.
Later, though, there was obviously a rift between the two. If you dig around a little you might get some ideas about what triggered it, though I'm not sure any of it really matters any more.
None of this really addresses my points, which were that (1) Martin had a year's notice that Carr was retiring and had plenty of opportunity to carry out a thorough search and (2) there's no way in hell he was going to fire Carr because of a single upset, immediately after convincing him to stick around long enough for a proper search to happen. Or maybe he thought that Lloyd would change his mind, once the shock of Bo's passing wore off? That could help explain why the proper search doesn't seem to have happened....
September 8th, 2014 at 10:51 PM ^
Lane after one embarrassing loss. Looks like they have great team and good coach this season! I don't think Michigan would ever fire their coach in the season, no matter the record. My gut is just telling me this is going to be one of those 5-7 type seasons. I thought we were threw with the sub .500 seasons!
September 9th, 2014 at 11:49 AM ^
Frank Broyles (a member of the College Football HOF, FWIW) fired Jack Crowe at Arkansas after they lost a season opener to The Citadel in 1992. Arkansas's certainly had no trouble hiring good coaches since then and I'm going to go out on a limb and say that job is PROBABLY not as desirable as Michigan's.
Florida let Ron Zook go in the middle of the season...they ended up with two national championships and a Heisman Trophy winner within the next few years following.
USC let Lane Kiffin go in the middle of the season...they had no shortage of interest in their HC job, either.
These programs are, in the eyes of many, beneath that of Michigan. But they are programs who take their football program seriously enough to make the statement that embarrassment or underperformance will not be tolerated. Lloyd had plenty of fans in the program and out, so there is no doubt that it would have been a controversial move, uncouthe, even...most "un-Michigan like".
But it would have sent the message that the A.D. understood the place Michigan football is supposed to hold on the landscape of college football and was unwilling to cede that place just for the sake of protocol.
Neg me to Bolivia if you want, it's all water under the bridge and nothing more than discussion at this point. But I lost my ability to be "outraged" or "shocked" or "panicked" over the direction of the program ever since App State '07 and its immediate aftermath. It ended up being a happy ending for Lloyd, but everything he left behind has pretty much sucked since then.
September 8th, 2014 at 3:44 PM ^
That's an incredibly stupid point of view. A school known for firing its coach after a big upset isn't going to be able to attract another good coach. Sure, we would have had more time to search, but nobody would have been interested.
September 8th, 2014 at 5:07 PM ^
A school known for firing its coach after he rebuilt the smoking crater he inherited into a winning team in three years is going to have difficulty attracting a good coach. Add in that the school's administration is so petty and childish that they deny that coach a ring from the bowl game he coached and the difficulty is compounded.
September 8th, 2014 at 5:34 PM ^
September 9th, 2014 at 1:15 PM ^
The Kiffin situation is entirely different from the idea posed in the comment to which I responded, which is that Lloyd should have been fired after the Horror. Let's not forget that in the season before the Horror, we were 3 points away from making the national championship game. Kiffin wasn't fired because he lost to Arizona State, he was fired because he had established a track record of incompetence, and the Arizona State game was the straw that broke the camel's back. Lloyd had done a great job leading up to the Horror, so the situations are in no way comparable.
September 9th, 2014 at 8:20 PM ^
...in the season before the Horror, we were 3 points away from making the national championship game."
Probably not your intent, but that actually helps to build the case for firing the guy who took most of that same team from 2006 and managed to lose to App State. They were a Top Five team before the Rose Bowl loss to USC, and they were a Top Five team to start the 2007 season. Teams like that just don't do what Michigan did without the consequences being severe.
September 10th, 2014 at 3:00 PM ^
In my opinion, you fire a coach because he doesn't have the ability to build your school into a winner. Carr didn't just "take" the team from 2006; he built the team from 2006. And don't forget, he also won a national championship of his own. If I could guarantee that the next 13 years of Michigan football would turn out exactly the same as the Carr years, I'd take that in a heartbeat.
September 9th, 2014 at 9:18 AM ^
September 8th, 2014 at 5:04 PM ^
September 8th, 2014 at 10:54 PM ^
Has some of that big program HC moxie in him. I would not mind seeing what he good do this season as coach. Only way this happens is if UT blows us out at home and Hoke resigns. Though, I doubt Hoke will ever resign.
September 8th, 2014 at 11:51 PM ^
September 8th, 2014 at 10:20 PM ^
It would give us time to find a coach who can win with all the talent we have. Hoke can recruit but that does not matter since he can not develop their talent.
September 8th, 2014 at 3:15 PM ^
You said you still support the kids. So....Hoke wasn't referring to you. It's really that simple.
September 8th, 2014 at 5:36 PM ^
I'm not convinced Hoke knew what or who he was referring to. Nothing about his statement clarifies if he was talking about just people who tweet at the kids, or maybe me who thinks they need to play better (although I do not fault their own effort or will), and the coaches who most definitely need to coach better. He said that he likes where this team is at... umm... I got nothing for that.
September 8th, 2014 at 6:32 PM ^
Let's go hit it with sticks!
I want to touch on Brady's comment regarding "true fans" again. In thread dedicated to that quote, lots of people defended Hoke, saying that taken in context of the question, he said the right thing. After actually reading the entire exchange, I don't feel that way at all. I don't have a huge problem with him saying it, but lets be intelectually honest here at least. There was no mention of Twitter comments directed at players, nor even suggestion that the fans aren't "behind" the players.
So. Where did people get the idea to straight up lie, and bring Twitter comments into the discussion, and further, to imply that was what Hoke was directly responding to? That is patently untrue, and I think people should be honest. Otherwise wtf do we even talk about things for?
/end rant.
Thoughts?
You should read the press conf. transcript. There is zero mention of fans lashing out at players in any way whatsover. Nor could it be inferred from any "context" that people are pointing to here...
September 8th, 2014 at 7:25 PM ^
to question his coaching. You just don't have a big enough platform for it to matter.
September 8th, 2014 at 4:17 PM ^
September 9th, 2014 at 8:54 AM ^
Fielding Yost basically said the same thing...read my signature that I've had since joining MGoBlog.
September 9th, 2014 at 12:06 PM ^
Get off your pompous high horse and give us a break. I understand this logic if this were Hoke's first season. It's not.
September 8th, 2014 at 1:15 PM ^
September 8th, 2014 at 1:18 PM ^
"Get a life"
September 8th, 2014 at 1:18 PM ^
Hoke is really going to lose the fan base if he responds to his own glaring failures by blaming his critics. Remember when he used to stress "Accountability"? This is bad. I, for one, am doing everything I can to stay positive in this midst of this calamity. I am reminding myself how Hoke and coaches turned around the team in 2011. Back then all we heard was how high quality the coaching was. I am trying to absorb those memories in light of what I am seeing. But if he goes this route, he might as well start playing Josh Groban songs.
September 8th, 2014 at 1:44 PM ^
taking accountability for what happened? All I read from what he said is he is responding to the shitty fans who are bashing the players and not supporting them. In that context, he's simply defending his players. Yes, he didn't come out and flat out say this loss was 100% my fault. Either way though, he doesn't owe any of us fans an explanation. He only owes his boss one.
September 8th, 2014 at 2:26 PM ^
September 8th, 2014 at 3:16 PM ^
The example they quote is somebody going after Jake Butt on twitter, telling him his team is "garbage". Hoke was asked what he had to say about that; the block quote is his response.
September 8th, 2014 at 10:25 PM ^
I didn't know it was about the comment to Butt. That makes me feel better, since Hoke was defending a player from a specific example of bogus criticism. As for accountability, my point was that if Hoke is taking shots at the fans then he is not being accountable for the inevitable results of his performance as head coach. (By the way, I really love Hoke, so that is not meant as a cheap shot.) As for Hoke not owing us an explanation, that is flat wrong. He does owe the alumni an explanation -- that is accountability. Not that he has to grovel, but in principle he does owe the Michigan fans. In the end, we are the ones who pay him and, more importantly, we are part of Michigan football. Kids come to UM in part because of us filling the stadium, maintaining great traditions, etc. I just want to see the coach come out and say, "You know what, we owe our great fans better than this." He may indeed have said that, but if he did it was only right.
September 8th, 2014 at 3:50 PM ^
Before making any twitter, or any other comment to a player, people need to consider the player from the standpoint of their own sons or nephews, in other words, if you woundn't twitter a particular comment to your own son or nephew, then you shouldn't send it to a player, or a recruit, for they are young men who are somebody's son, and if you woundn't want your own son treated that way, then you have no right to treat them that way either.
That said, outside of his first year, and recruiting, I think that Brady Hoke has done a piss poor job of coaching this football team on the field. Some people have it and some people don't, and he is simply mismatched as Head Football Coach at Michigan, and should be replaced at the end of the season. I.M.H.O.
Last point. The loyalty and passion of this fan base as a whole should be unquestioned. What other fan base would continually fill up the Big House after what we have been given over these last seven years? What other fan base would support the program with donations and attention when we haven't had but one decent team since 2006? If we are not a great fan base we would not be so passionate about the state of the program or where it is going, and we simply wouldn't care. Just because a few, no doubt drunken, idiots do something stupid, doesn't deminish the entire fan base, but it has given this coach a shield to hide his incompetence behind.
September 8th, 2014 at 4:18 PM ^
If you are going to insult someone, first walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you insult them you are a mile away...and you have their shoes.
September 8th, 2014 at 6:33 PM ^
You obviously didn't read the presser then. I hope you aren't an attorney, and if you are, I'd like to know who so I don't ever retain your services.
September 8th, 2014 at 1:44 PM ^
...but I don't see how Hoke is blaming anyone...particularly his critics as you suggest. Am I missing something or was there more to this report/quote where he blames fans, etc.?
September 8th, 2014 at 5:37 PM ^
September 8th, 2014 at 7:48 PM ^
September 8th, 2014 at 1:16 PM ^
It's not so much the KIDS that I'm having trouble believing in...
September 8th, 2014 at 1:17 PM ^
Everyone goes crazy and starts demanding heads be lopped.
OSU fans want every coach outside of Meyer (and Larry Johnson) fired as of yesterday. Hoke shouldn't even need to make a statement like that at all. That said, grown ass men should never tweet recruits or players- good or bad.
Every fan of a B1G team needs to put down the iphone, step away from the computer (or watch some cat videos) and just chill.
September 8th, 2014 at 2:00 PM ^
We're not reacting to one loss here.
We're reacting to issues the team has had the last 7 years.
We're reacting to issues the team has had the last 4 years.
We're reacting heavily to a parallel between last year's historically bad team and an epic pounding that we just received from a rival.
We're reacting to a string of infamous records being broken...
I'm not asking for anyone's head. But this isn't about simply "one big loss."
September 8th, 2014 at 2:13 PM ^
Do people forget how bad this program has been when they defend Hoke? It's been 1 good year the past 7. All if it is not Hoke's fault but he is part of this and we are not getting better.