Solecismic

December 9th, 2020 at 9:19 PM ^

In his day, Harbaugh ran the ball much more than the average NFL quarterback. He knew how to coach up Kaepernick. Not sure with Luck, but it's hard not to give him some credit there.

No idea why the position has been, objectively, a major weakness since he came here.

I've looked in depth at this issue (my most recent blog post was about running QBs in the NFL). The NFL-caliber dual-threat guys are unstoppable in college. They also hit their peaks in the NFL earlier (around the end of year two). But their careers are much, much shorter and they're soon surpassed by the sit-in-the-pocket and get it out fast guys.

We have a new generation of superstars (Jackson, Watson) challenging that story, and Russell Wilson is in that mold and isn't that far from locking up a spot in Canton. So rules are made to be broken.

Joined: 11/27/2016

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Stringer Bell

December 9th, 2020 at 3:10 PM ^

Not sure I buy that.  Peters was a borderline top 50 recruit, he transferred out.  Patterson was the top QB in his class, he got worse during his time here.  McCaffery was a top 100 player in his class, he transferred out.  Milton has all the raw tools in the world, he's been getting worse.

 

I think the talent is there.  And if it isn't, then why is Harbaugh bringing these guys in?

Joined: 11/06/2014

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michengin87

December 9th, 2020 at 3:49 PM ^

For the same reasons NFL makes poor QB draft decisions and that's based upon much more evidence than Jim has.  To wit from a recent draft, Sam Darnold at No. 3 and Josh Rosen No. 10 in 2018.  Dwayne Haskins in 2019?  These guys were all blue chips.

Even OSU let the best QB from last year's class get away because they had Haskins.  Likewise, look at LSU this year.

Not absolving Jim, just saying there are very few franchise QBs each year.  JJ looks the closest for us since Henne.

Joined: 07/14/2009

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G. Gulo of the Dale

December 9th, 2020 at 3:11 PM ^

There's plenty to pin on Harbaugh, but I'm not sure either Speight or O'Korn are great examples:  as a recruit, the former was a bit of a reach by Borges, and frankly played better than I ever expected in 2016; the latter was snatched up as a flier for depth purposes and often simply struggled to hit open receivers. 

Obviously, between Peters, McCaffrey, and Milton, Harbaugh should have produced a solid, Big Ten starter.  [And one could argue that Patterson should have been better by the time he graduated, though he probably was overrated as a prospect.]

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pescadero

December 9th, 2020 at 2:43 PM ^

Schools with the most draft picks since 2000:

1) Ohio St.     141
2) Alabama     127
3) LSU     126
4) Miami (FL)     119
5) Florida     117
6) Georgia     115
7) USC     112
8) Florida St.     109
9) Oklahoma     101

First Round picks since 2000:

1t) Ohio St.     31
1t) Alabama     31
3) Miami (FL)     30
4) Florida St.     24
5t) USC     22
5t) Florida     22
7) LSU     19
8) Georgia     19
9t) Oklahoma     16
9t) Texas     16
11t)Tennessee     15
11t) Wisconsin     15
13) Michigan     14

 

...and the numbers look REALLY BAD if you look at offensive skill position players.

Joined: 03/28/2013

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schreibee

December 9th, 2020 at 4:04 PM ^

When I read negative shit like the stuff you post String, I try to comfort myself knowing every program that struggles has "fans" like you - actually probably way worse!

It's like a dream of mine to someday see what bucknuts would be like if they ever had a bad season! I bet they'd be epic!

Joined: 11/02/2009

MGoPoints: 21143

Stringer Bell

December 9th, 2020 at 4:29 PM ^

You want me to put a positive spin on Harbaugh's QB development?  Because that would simply be lying.  The QB position has largely been dogshit since he's been here.  The only QB he's had drafted was Rudock who was a 6th round draft pick.

I love McCarthy's loyalty, but honestly if I were advising him I would tell him to look around because Harbaugh is not going to maximize his potential.

Joined: 11/06/2014

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schreibee

December 9th, 2020 at 6:02 PM ^

And I'm sure you'd have told Josh Johnson  Andrew Luck & Colin Kaepernik the same. 

And Rudock had been beaten out at Iowa before JH helped make him an outstanding passer. Speight was a middling Borges croot none of us ever wanted to see on the field, until he surprised us all by being pretty damn good pre-Iowa shoulder separation. 

You add Peters transferring out to your list while Shea transferred in, but context free. They were direct results of each other. With hindsight we'd probably all stay with Peters now, but I was none too impressed with him turning tail & fleeing, rather than competing at the time.

In Peter's brief opportunities he proved physically fragile & looked mentally soft. He has played up to his HS crootin rep at Illinois tho. When he's on the field. 

But JO'K never improving may have been foretelling of JH losing his touch with QB development, and choosing Shea over Peters may have foretold he had lost touch with communicating with this generation. 

JH also drove the more highly skilled but unreliably fragile DMac off the team. That was a terrible decision, terribly handled, if you can believe the rumor mill.

All these examples show NOTHING about how a highly talented, motivated, natural leader like JJ would fare at Michigan. There is cause for concern with how the team has (failed to) develop the past 2 years, but not to where I'd tell 5⭐ QBs they ought to look elsewhere for their own good.

I love Michigan, I ALWAYS think the best decision a young person can make is go to Michigan! 

Your attitude in these posts shows the worst type of negative Nancy front runner tendencies. Own that sir.

All that said, I think Harbaugh's time at Michigan should be over. It's not even the QB decisions as much as the entire team's performance. Not up to standard! 

Joined: 11/02/2009

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Stringer Bell

December 9th, 2020 at 6:21 PM ^

lol ok.  If I were a front runner I would pick a different football team to root for, one that wins at least once in a while.  I'm just giving an honest assessment of Harbaugh's QB development at Michigan, it has been subpar to say the least and if I'm a parent of a QB recruit with NFL aspirations you bet I'm steering him to a different program.  I really don't care what Harbaugh did with Luck 10 years ago, or Kaepernick 8 years ago (and Kaepernick is another example of a QB getting worse the more he played under Harbaugh).

Speight was decent in 2016 but he was a game manager, not a guy that will win a title without Alabama-like talent around him.  I don't think Harbaugh really elevated his play that much, and then he performed significantly worse the next season.  If Peters and McCaffery had been lighting the world on fire, he wouldn't have brought in Patterson.  And if he was still any good at coaching QBs, he would've turned Patterson into the NFL draft pick his recruiting profile projected him to be.

So don't sugarcoat his QB development here, it just comes off as disingenuous.

Joined: 11/06/2014

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schreibee

December 9th, 2020 at 8:06 PM ^

1st of all, thank fucking God your name isn't "JJ McCarthy's Dad"!

If at any sign of trouble you'd advise your own kid to go elsewhere besides Michigan, then you are the worst kind of front runner!

And as for whether Speight outperformed expectations, or could win an NC without bama level talent around him, did McElroy, McCarron or Tua? Or DeShaun or Trevor? Cardale?

Of course not! Talk about disingenuous! 

Let's bottom line this, so we can move on: I believe the TEAM'S performance vs osu in '18 & '19, and throughout '20 (minus vs the wildly overrated Gophers) has earned the ENTIRE staff a pink slip. I don't need to try to convince players they'd be better off elsewhere, I'll NEVER say that! 

 

Joined: 11/02/2009

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Stringer Bell

December 9th, 2020 at 9:10 PM ^

I mean, McCarron and Tua were both Heisman finalists.  Tua was a top 5 pick.  Ditto Watson and Lawrence at Clemson.  And all of them won national championships because they made their teams better.  I really don't think that's true of Speight.

And, I mean, first sign of trouble?  We still base our reputation of QB development on Tom Brady, who last played for Michigan 20 years ago.  The only other guy we have in the league is career backup Chad Henne.  Obviously we all thought Harbaugh would change that, he hasn't.  He's merely continued a longstanding trend of generally mediocre to bad QB play.  So yeah, I respect McCarthy's loyalty and think it's a sign that he's going to be a great leader and a great representative of the program.  I'm very glad to have him in the fold.  I'm just saying it's not the decision I would've made, not because I'm a front runner but because I don't think Michigan would be the best place for my development as a QB.

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1VaBlue1

December 9th, 2020 at 1:53 PM ^

If any college coach demands only one type of player, I really don't want that coach in Ann Arbor.  You can't always get the specific type of player you want in college, so you have to be able to change things up based on your personnel.  You can't do that if you're stuck on only one type of player.

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bluesalt

December 9th, 2020 at 3:31 PM ^

I completely disagree with you on this.  Switching as needed from dual-threat to pro-style impacts every position on offense.  For some positions it’s lost reps, and for other positions it may require differently skilled/sized players.

I don’t know why you’d want someone switching the entire offense most every year.  We’ve seen that to a degree and it doesn’t work.

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