Signature Win - RR's Turn?
The Signature Win? These moments tend to come when low expectations are rewarded with a big outcome - usually a big upset. Is the general malaise about RR in the public due to a lack of this "AH-HA!" moment? Recall:
Michigan Fans may remember 1995.
Previous year 8-4, #14 preseason, Michigan loses to #25 Northwestern at home? Followed by a loss to unranked MSU, and then a loss to #22 PSU. On our third coach in 5 years - is Carr aggressive enough? Too soft?
But then, #18 Michigan upsets #2 OSU 31-23. - Carr's 1st Signature Win.
Or remember 1969, when a 1st year coach named Bo took a 7-3 Michigan team and soundly beat #1 OSU 24-12. A very Signature Win.
However, Gary Moeller took over for Bo with a Big Ten Champion #4 ranked team. He did beat OSU too, twice in a row. And then went undefeated 9-0-3 with a #5 rank and a Rose Bowl win. But after all, starting at #4 the only place to go up to is a National Championship. Was the expectations too high? Did Moeller never get the Signature Win and therefore the extra love where everybody loves an underdog?
With #6 Wisconsin and #8 Ohio State looming is this where the underdog unranked Wolverines get a RR Signature Win? Will that win lift RR into the good graces of the skeptical and undecided fans and media? Will the effectiveness of the RR spread be the difference?
IMO - an upset vs WI or OSU provides a Signature Win for RR, a contract extension and proves once and for all that yes, West Virginia, there is a Santa Claus.
November 18th, 2010 at 3:30 PM ^
November 18th, 2010 at 3:30 PM ^
He really needs to win one of the next two games. The players know it, too.
My quarter says they'll deliver a win.
November 18th, 2010 at 3:35 PM ^
Winning either game would be scrumptrulescent but I would only classify beating OSU as a "signature" win. Wisconsin would be a great win, but beating OSU would really quiet down some of the RR haters.
November 18th, 2010 at 3:37 PM ^
Nice word and I agree. A Wisconsin win would be nice, but I would rather beat the team down south and start a new winning streak.
November 18th, 2010 at 4:10 PM ^
I'm a begger and not a chooser . . . just give me one win. 8-4 for the season would be outstanding.
November 18th, 2010 at 6:54 PM ^
The loud RR haters will exist until they've lost all hope of forcing him out. Even if we somehow win both games, they'll still be around.
November 19th, 2010 at 11:49 AM ^
I agree with the first part, but if we win the next two games and finish 9-3 then they will have lost all hope of forcing him out in the next few years at least. That would be an incredible year with two gigantic upsets while using an almost exclusively underclass defense. We would head into the Bowl season ranked in the teens.
Even at 7-5 (what I expect unfortunately) it would take completely uncompetitive play against UW and OSU and a bowl flop for RR to have any shot of losing his job.
November 19th, 2010 at 7:40 PM ^
I think that a lot of RR haters just want a win against MSU. I really think most of them are just tired of losing to MSU.
November 18th, 2010 at 3:35 PM ^
I see UM upsetting at least one of the teams for a signature win for RR. I think it will be Wiscy this Saturday and good game against tOSU could go our way also.
As far as the media and undecided fans, a win over each one of these may not change their minds. Many people hate RR and will never support him. A win over tOSU would be nice and would get the winning back on our side, but some of the media will still be against RR.
November 18th, 2010 at 3:36 PM ^
Please define criteria for a signature win....The 1969 24-12 win over the defending national champion and number ranked OSU Buckeyes in A2 was a definite signature win. Underdogs, against a supposedly vastly superior team that had mowed us down 50-14 the year earlier....
Not so sure that your 1995 win over OSU for Carr fits what I would define as a signature win.
If you believe in signature wins, there must also be signature losses. For me, Moeller's 1994 loss to Colorado was his signature loss that heralded the rest of the events that took him out as our head coach. Carr's loss to "The Team that Shall not be Named" in 2007 was a signature loss that presaged his departure, even if it was on his own terms.
November 18th, 2010 at 3:47 PM ^
I just don't think we want to talk about them heading into this stretch of the season when it finally looks like Rich's career is being stabilized. We want a confirming win, not a doubt creating loss.
November 18th, 2010 at 5:00 PM ^
How is a loss on a game-ending hail mary a "signature loss?" Probably one of the 2 or 3 craziest endings in college football history. Maybe you're saying BECAUSE OF the way the game was lost it was a "signature loss?"
November 18th, 2010 at 3:40 PM ^
I agree with allot of what you say in your post. However, I would never call Wisconsin a signature win for our program. For as long as I can remember we've always had Wisconsin's number. We even beat Wiscy when we had the Sheridan/Threat tandem. I realize they are #8 in the country but I fully expect us to go out there and compete. I think we have an excellent shot at winning this game. We need the defense to follow up on the excellent effort we saw last week. Denard and Co will take care of the rest...As for Ohio State...That is an entirely different matter altogether. Beating the Buckeyes will be RRod's signature win whether it happens this year or next...
November 18th, 2010 at 4:14 PM ^
But yes, in that game he was a Threat.
November 18th, 2010 at 5:50 PM ^
You can't remember anything before this year? Wisconsin won in '09 and won in '07 and won in '05... I don't see how that's having Wisconsin's number.
If anything, the matchup has been determined by whoever has the home field advantage.
November 18th, 2010 at 3:44 PM ^
What about Wisconsin in 2008? Wisconsin was ranked and we were horrible...they were ranked number 9 and that was our 500th home game...how was that not a signature win?
November 18th, 2010 at 3:45 PM ^
They ended up being pretty average by the time the season was done. It's like beating Notre Dame, well, any game in the last 20 years. It looks good at the time, but later it's not as glorious.
November 19th, 2010 at 9:27 AM ^
Maybe, but it sure feels dam good to beat ND nonetheless.
November 18th, 2010 at 4:14 PM ^
Somehow, a signature win needs to be seen in the rearview mirror down the road as a win that foreshadows great things coming......2008's win sure did not do that, now did it?
November 18th, 2010 at 3:43 PM ^
I was going to ask if NOW is the time for a "signature win". Not sure if I was going to go use the same terminology, but basically meant the same thing. It's year 3...are we going to get that big win finally in the last two games of the regular season?
Because we've beat some teams as good/bad as us, and lost to some. We've beat a lot of teams worse than us, and lost to a couple. But we haven't really beaten a team head and shoulders above us for the 3 year term. Is now the time?
It's not ground breaking, it's not defining. It's not he should be fired if he can't win one of the last two games. He'll be back at 7-5, barring any disaster (if Wisconsin scores 80, OSU goes for 2 to make it 50, and we lose a bowl game to go 7-6, it might be a little scary...). But a great coach will win the majority of those he should, split the even ones, and steal an occasional big one. Is it time to steal a big one?
(And btw, at best Lloyd was the 3rd coach in 6 years...Mo coached for 5 years...so, at the very beginning it could be six, but really, by the end of the season, it was close to 7 years since Bo was coach.Minor nitpick).
November 18th, 2010 at 3:47 PM ^
not be the "signature" win. I think we all know that win can only be against tOSU
November 18th, 2010 at 3:47 PM ^
Surprised no one's posted it yet, so I'll carry the torch and continue this week's theme - HARD EDGE! The excitement switch is now officially set to ON.
November 18th, 2010 at 3:53 PM ^
I've seen something to the effect of "I see us winning one of the next two" or "I have a feeling we're gonna win one of the next two" written all over the place. I don't understand what this adds. A Michigan football fan on a Michigan blog filled with all of the most positive Michigan fans that exist sees us winning one of two....sweet.
I'm not trying to be negative, just objective. On an objective, reasonable basis (other than your "gut"), does anybody really anticipate us winning one of these two games? I mean, Wisconsin and Ohio State are leaps and bounds ahead of us as a program.
Of course on the other hand, any team can beat any team on any given day, and I hope we take both of them. I just don't see any logical basis to anticipate that occurring.
November 18th, 2010 at 5:37 PM ^
"...on the other hand, any team can beat any team on any given day..."
I think this is the horse we're riding for now
November 18th, 2010 at 6:43 PM ^
Assuming, for simplicity, that Michigan has a 30% chance of winning each game, the probability of winning one or both games is (1 - (.7 x .7)) = 51%.
Aside from the fact that these odds were pulled out of my ass, this is an objective, statistical way that victory as an underdog can be believable, even probable. OK, maybe their odds are lower, I don't know. This affects the probability, but like you said it still doesn't make defeat inevitable.
Objectivity aside, hope springs eternal and you wouldn't be watching this Saturday if you were really so confident they were going to lose.
November 18th, 2010 at 4:04 PM ^
I think a signature win for these seniors would be Saturday in their last game at The Big House and I'm sure they would love to beat the team down south too, but it would be something special for them to win on Senior Day.
As for me, F the haters and let's win both! All In Go Blue!!
November 18th, 2010 at 4:12 PM ^
I'm pretty happy with what we've managed so far. The far harder task is this week--Wisconsin is very for real. And we play OSU at their place.
Tamp down the irrational over-exuberance? That's the path I'm on. And I'll kick myself with joyful glee if we manage to eke out a win in either case.
November 18th, 2010 at 4:11 PM ^
Wisconsin 2008 was pretty fucking signature (whatever the fuck that means).
I wish people would stop saying that. Every win is "signature." It goes into that RR at Michigan record all the haters waive around like a fucking flag.
November 18th, 2010 at 4:28 PM ^
But this would be one against a really good team, which would be a first. And nice to add to the ledger.
I mean, some of these teams that we're going 0-3 against (MSU, PSU....and if we don't win, OSU), Rich could win at a more than respectable 2 out of 3 pace....and it would be 8 more years before he has a winning record against any of them. No need to make the hole any bigger.
November 18th, 2010 at 4:33 PM ^
That Wisconsin team was top 10, so no, it wouldn't be a first. They are all nice to add to the ledger so people would stop throwing it around (TWSS).
November 19th, 2010 at 3:05 PM ^
They dropped out of the rankings in week 6, and finished 7-6, unranked. ND has been ranked some of the times we've beat them. It didn't make them a good team. Saying someone is really good in September is a lot different than saying they're good in November.
November 18th, 2010 at 5:54 PM ^
No... beating Baby Seal U was not a signature win, for one. One reasonable definition might be beating a team that ends the year ranked.
By any reasonable definition, RR does not have a signature win. That's hardly the worst thing about RR you're going to hear, so I suggest you deal with it.
November 18th, 2010 at 6:40 PM ^
You get the Internet Tough Guy Fuck Trophy.
It's meaningless.
Hey and I will beat the shit out of you because I am super huge and know how to fight. See how easy that was? Now who better deal with what? Yea, thought so. Puss.
November 19th, 2010 at 7:33 PM ^
There's nothing "tough guy" about it. I and other people are not going to change our posting habits because you don't like one particular term. If you learn to not care, maybe you'll be a happier poster for it.
And no, I won't waste my time with joking (but not really) pseudo-trash talk. That's just stupid.
November 18th, 2010 at 4:17 PM ^
Bo's win over #1 OSU in 1969 & Carr's win over #2 OSU in 1995 are two of the most memorable "signature" wins in Michigan & U-M coaching history. Moeller's "problem" IMO is that his team was so highly regarded that, anything less than, a NC would not have been classified as a "signature" win and, truth be told, with the talent Moeller had, he under-achieved IMO. He won three straight B10 titles & was 3-1-1 v OSU, 2-2-1 v ND (who were a powerhouse at the time) & 3-2 v Sparty...not to mention, 4-1 in bowl games! But he lost v #1 FSU at the Big House in 1991 & the heart-wrenching loss to #7 Colorado on the Hail Mary by Kordell Stewart in 1994 at the Big House.
As for RR, I was one of the very skeptical ones when he was hired...and still am...but I said, at the beginning of 2010, that if we went 8-4 (4-4, B10) that I would accept RR, once & for all. Well, we're 7-3 in 2010 & going "bowling" after two LONG years! We're also 2-1 v ND...but that's not saying much...0-3 v Sparty (which SUCKS) & 0-2 v OSU!
If there's a "signature" win in RR's future, there's never going to be a better opportunity than the next two weeks....v Wisky or @ OSU! If we could win both, that would be AMAZING...but I'll be happy with one and, while I'd love to finally beat the "Evil Empire", I'm guessing RR's best shot for that elusive "signature" win will be this Saturday v Wisky!!
November 18th, 2010 at 4:28 PM ^
1). Ohio State
2) Wisconsin
3) my endorsement sig on a big fat check from a client.
November 19th, 2010 at 11:44 AM ^
Would be you signing said check over to me. Muah ha ha
November 18th, 2010 at 4:40 PM ^
November 18th, 2010 at 5:34 PM ^
and surprisingly probably to some, I think - just maybe - the youngsters might be up to task. They seem to be coming into their own and even when IL scored our pass defenders were actually in damn good position, but were simply witnesses to some fine passing.
The worst thing that could have happened to us vs. PSU did. We were facing a qb thrown into the fire but is, and the facts bear this out, is further ahead than Bolden at this time. For some reason I will never understand, GR decided to play soft coverage, with a modicum of pressure, which led to not only being picked apart through the air, but also allowed to their ground success.
Any first time qb should be harried until he proves doing so is a mistake. They should not be allowed to be comfortable and given time to throw. This makes all qbs look like Johny U.,
The situation is not the same vs. WI due to their experience at the qb position. They aren't, however, as good as they looked. That IN team was empty due to what happened the previous weekend vs. IA. If their receiver catches the ball, WI is facing a far hungrier and happy D. The defense we're playing allows for some unconventional blitzing and for reasons again I don't understand, GRob opts instead, although it's proven disastrous, to pull out for coverage while blitzing like on the final play vs. the Illini was just a glimpse of what we're capable of.
I'd opt for a four man front, with Roh remaining at end w/Demens and whomever healthiest and most fit manning the backer spots. Bring em Greg and you still have your run stoppers in with the inclusion of Martin and either Patterson or Banks at the tackles.
I think this approach would be our best chance for what people are terming a "signature win" that I think he's already gotten many times, i.e., OU, GT, GA, etc., which occurred with mean, blitzing backers and a fine offense.
November 18th, 2010 at 7:11 PM ^
Yes. Don't forget, this is college football. Young players step up and surprise the doubters (mostly, the media) all the time.
This young defense is very resilient. If they don't have a breakout game Saturday, we can be sure that they will be much improved in the near future.
My guess is that our defense looks amazing in the bowl game. Totally unrecognizable from earlier this year.
November 18th, 2010 at 6:29 PM ^
If we could somehow beat Ohio State, "signature win" or not, the entire feeling of Rich Rod's time here in Ann Arbor would change. Football Gods, please let this happen!
November 18th, 2010 at 7:08 PM ^
The ever-idolized Lloyd Carr left me with 4 years of no-OSU wins. That is to say, I was "oh"-fer in college. RR beating OSU would be nothing short of a God-send
November 18th, 2010 at 7:06 PM ^
Yes, absolutely. I'm so sick of all these RR haters. And these pukes that want UM to lose so RR leaves. He needs to shut them up for real
November 19th, 2010 at 12:11 PM ^
Unfortunately, UM doesn't have a signature win or even a good win against a truly good team the past 3 seasons. Hopefully that changes in the next 2 weeks.
The win against Wisconsin in 2008 was not a signature win because Wisky finished the season 6-6. So what if they were ranked 10th at the time it's like saying that a win against Texas who was ranked #4 this year is a signature win. Just ask the computers and the voters.