SIAP: Gemon Green had a very good reason for wanting to get through the tunnel as quickly as possible
I haven't seen the original Detroit News reporting on this, but it pretty much undercuts the already-tenuous Sparty argument that Green provoked the assault because he rushed into the tunnel in order to taunt MSU players.
For the "why was he even in the tunnel of his home stadium" crowd...according to the Detroit News, Gemon Green weekly rushes up the tunnel to be ready to see his dad, who is a trucker and drives up from Texas with limited time on his day off.
— MichiganPodcast (@MichiganPodcast) November 1, 2022
November 1st, 2022 at 2:03 PM ^
Actually, he was the 3rd person up the tunnel after Gemon and McBurrows. The ESPN video shows him barely making it through the threshold of the locker room door before he comes screaming back out after he (presumably) sees his brother.
November 1st, 2022 at 3:26 PM ^
Great question, great answer.
Makes the stupid shit by MSU players worse given these guys were just trying to see their family.
November 1st, 2022 at 12:53 PM ^
I don't know how unpopular this take is, but if Sparty as a program doesn't sort this out (in addition to the Big Ten and law enforcement), then they should no longer be scheduled. They have a long pattern of lack of discipline, culminating in this. The rivalry matters 10X more to them than it does us, they need it more than we do. Punish them by taking them off the schedule, if they don't take this seriously enough.
November 1st, 2022 at 12:56 PM ^
We had a whole thread on it over the weekend, with overwhelming support for your position Comrade.
November 1st, 2022 at 12:56 PM ^
I'm in the same boat. Ever since they announced conference expansion I have though it's the time to stop playing MSU annually. I wouldn't miss it personally. Maybe my feelings are just because of the time I've been alive and paying attention to MSU and UM, but it's gotten so damn toxic in the last 10 years. I don't think UM needs that negativity. They're just another B1G team, schedule them as such.
November 1st, 2022 at 12:58 PM ^
Kevin Warren's son plays for State so I imagine that conflict of interest is causing some problems...
November 1st, 2022 at 1:00 PM ^
Let’s not get too far off the rails here. Saying they have a long pattern of a lack of discipline is akin to Sparty saying Michigan has had a long history of tunnel issues. There have been “issues”, but nothing that rose to the level of what just happened. If “lack of discipline” was a reason to not schedule a team, Miami (YTM) and Baylor wouldn’t have schedules.
The best thing to do to Sparty after this? KEEP BEATING THEM.
November 1st, 2022 at 1:11 PM ^
i'm with you. the best way to deal with these turds is to win with cruelty and win with character.
beat them, repeatedly, by huge margins, in every single sport, forever. that's the only way to shut them up by even 1%. let them do their thug shit in every sport (which they do), just turn away and beat holy hell out of them, cleanly and legally.
we're better than they are, and always will be, so let's keep proving it.
November 1st, 2022 at 1:19 PM ^
Nobody said never to play them ever. It is this bravado that beating them is going to teach them a lesson is never going to work. It is only going to keep getting worse. They need a new culture and attitude. They need a timeout to get their priorities straight. A break, just like in life, will give people a new perspective.
November 1st, 2022 at 1:34 PM ^
I'm not sure it's a break from playing Michigan that they need. It might be a break from playing football, period. There were so many players involved in this, either taking swings or standing around enjoying the scene, that it's clear the rot goes deep. Ending their season would not be too drastic IMO.
November 1st, 2022 at 1:57 PM ^
A break from playing Michigan might help MSU in the long run. MSU football's identity revolves around Michigan to an unhealthy extent. Maybe a little time away from playing us would help them establish a new identify that is authentically their own, rather than just a reflection of their hatred for all things Michigan.
November 1st, 2022 at 3:15 PM ^
"giving them a break" won't "give them perspective," either. it will just be one more log to throw on the little brother campfire.
the whole "we should just stop playing them" thing is complete wankery. it's never ever not fucking ever going to happen, so give it a rest.
November 1st, 2022 at 4:20 PM ^
I actually said, the day of the game, that I am done with them forever. I think I'm still there right now. Why bother. Let them become insignificant without being able to play their Superbowl. They will essentially become Central or Western without us and the Big Ten, and they deserve it.
November 1st, 2022 at 1:51 PM ^
What? They do have a long history of issues some of which were even worse than what just happened.
https://www.mlive.com/spartans/2009/12/report_eight_michigan_state_fo.html
November 1st, 2022 at 2:02 PM ^
M beat them last Saturday, how did that help?
MSU is like an abusive family member. At some point it's a good idea to separate for a while and see if they can figure things out.
There are plenty of other teams out there to play. We can start with USC & UCLA coming into the conference soon. I don't think anyone would miss Sparty if we swapped for one of those teams.
November 1st, 2022 at 12:54 PM ^
But why would he be in the tunnel at his own home field at the university he attends. Should stop there it’s his house he can go where he wants. These people talking about how msu should have been respected more are crazy and a sign of the times where the aggressor is now the victim.
November 1st, 2022 at 1:23 PM ^
Yep, apparently after a big win the team should bow down silently in reverence to their vanquished foe, and the fans must silently sit on their hands, lest their happiness enrage the poor opponents. What man could avoid going into a murderous rage when there are people skipping and waving?
November 1st, 2022 at 1:40 PM ^
I will bet that half the sparties saying "he shouldn't celebrate where the other team can see it" have also been complaining for years about how celebration penalties shouldn't exist.
November 1st, 2022 at 12:54 PM ^
Look, it doesn't matter what his reason for going to locker room was. He could have done cartwheels up the tunnel saying 'Fuck Little Brother Sharty' to every player and it still wouldn't justify assault. The amount of tribalism from MSU fans is just baffling. I don't get it. The players behavior doesn't have any affect on you a person who is just a fan of the damn team. Take a step back and take a healthier relationship with sports.
November 1st, 2022 at 12:55 PM ^
Thank you for sharing this Comrade.
November 1st, 2022 at 12:56 PM ^
I mean, it's good to know, but it really shouldn't fucking matter why he's in the tunnel going to the locker room "early."
It's like me standing in my driveway. Why am I there? It doesn't matter, but it's not to get sucker punched I tell you what.
November 1st, 2022 at 12:56 PM ^
"Already-tenuous" is an awfully polite way of saying "complete donkey-shit."
November 1st, 2022 at 12:58 PM ^
I have been wondering, given the lawsuit that Mars is building, whether any liability can be thrown Michigan's way. Would any MGoLawyers care to weigh in? My hunch is "no" since this level of violence has NEVER happened despite previous jawing and pb&j-related halftime incidents. But I can't completely dismiss the possibility either.
And no, I'm not blaming the tunnel, it's a silly thing to say "build another tunnel" because then you should be mandating that across ALL college football and NFL stadiums (i.e. not as simple of a solution as it sounds). BUT, when a serious event like this happens, there is no doubt an institutional response required by Michigan in order to prevent it from ever happening again. Just like ConcussionGate. I don't think it's enough to just say "other teams should act like adults", because now Michigan is on notice that they cannot rely on it anymore. Which means more strict protocols for tunnel entry, including what security should do (clearly, despite increased presence, they were ineffective and not ready for such a situation), and if a guy like Green wants to enter earlier he may need a personal security escort. It's fucking ridiculous, but that's the sort of shit that happens when one guy (er, team in this case) ruins it for everybody else.
November 1st, 2022 at 1:08 PM ^
If Green and Mars really want money, then yes, they absolutely could sue UM. I have no idea if they would win or settle something out of court, but they for sure could. I'm not sure what Green is looking for with hiring Mars. There will be criminal charges, so it may be wise to retain an attorney. But Mars doesn't seem like the attorney that will work for free or cheap so I imagine he will be searching for that fee from somewhere.
November 1st, 2022 at 1:35 PM ^
I do believe that Mars has in the past done his CFB work pro bono. Not saying that is the case here but it could be.
Why pro bono?
1. Dude is already extremely rich - he made millions upon millions as General Counsel / CAO at Walmart for many years.
2. The free publicity he has gotten for his CFB work is worth multiples of whatever fees he would have made from the kids and their families.
November 1st, 2022 at 1:10 PM ^
I'm not a lawyer, but… Michigan can absolutely be liable, because while I think the tunnel narrative is nonsense, a jury might buy it. Furthermore, Michigan did apparently have extra (ineffective) security on hand, meaning (a) they knew something was possible and (b) did not take effective steps to mitigate the danger.
I mentioned this originally, but the thing that Michigan (and, for that matter, MSU) both have going for them is Michigan's tort reform from the 90s. Michigan dropped the doctrine of joint & several liability (J&SL) in most cases, in favor of fair share liability. When J&SL applies, personal injury lawyers will routinely include any deep-pocketed defendant with even a tenuous connection to the case, because even if they get found 1% liable, they would have to shoulder 100% of the award if the parties that were 99% liable couldn't pay. Under fair share liability, if Michigan is found 1% liable, they'd be responsible for 1% of the award whether the rest of the parties can afford to pay or not.
So, if you look at that and you decide that the players are collectively 90% to blame and MSU 10%, then the Greens would have to try to collect from the players, who likely don't have a ton of assets.
November 1st, 2022 at 1:23 PM ^
Michigan did take steps to mitigate the danger, they hired extra security. The fact that it wasn't effective is on the extra security, not Michigan.
November 1st, 2022 at 3:27 PM ^
Which would make the security firm (I'm assuming it was a security company from which we hired the extra security) liable and likely another party to the suit.
November 1st, 2022 at 2:10 PM ^
I would expect a lawsuit against Michigan to be dismissed under these circumstances. Generally speaking, in Michigan premises owners are not liable for criminal activity on their premises. The law considers the criminal activity unforeseeable, and therefore not actionable. There are a few exceptions. One of the exceptions is, in fact, when the premises owner hires security, but the security behaves negligently. That's going to a tough row to hoe, though, by the time all the testimony is taken, especially when such egregious criminal activity is involved.
Also, the University of Michigan is a governmental institution, and enjoys sovereign immunity. With a few exceptions, this exempts the university from liability. What's left is to sue individual university employees, but governmental employees receive partial immunity. That means, to find the employees liable, the plaintiff must show gross negligence, and not just ordinary negligence. This would be an extremely tough standard to meet.
November 1st, 2022 at 2:35 PM ^
Thank you for this. As for the first part, I guess I don't know if 'doing nothing' is considered negligence; i.e., does hired security have a duty to intervene? Because, if not, you're right; that's going to be a higher bar than I initially thought.
I hadn't considered sovereign immunity, but that's a good point as well. It probably goes to the same question -- even if doing nothing is negligence, I suspect it'd be ordinary negligence. However, looking at the exceptions to Michigan's sovereign immunity law, one of them is the performance of proprietary functions; and that seems to be a conduit to liability at least for the two athletic departments. The football game could easily be construed as an activity for pecuniary profit; I suspect it'd be hard to classify it otherwise.
Let's turn it around, then -- what's the case against MSU? They'd also have sovereign immunity, and keep in mind -- MSU players are not employees. Therefore, I would not expect that an attack by an MSU player during a sanctioned sporting event immediately pierced that immunity. I suspect Mr. Mars is going to have to show that this behavior was the result of actions directed by a university employee (e.g., Mel Tucker). To borrow a phrase I saw the other day -- if Mel ordered the Code Red, then (a) he would be personally liable civilly and perhaps criminally; and (b) that should pierce immunity, either because it's gross negligence or under the proprietary functions exception I noted otherwise.
If Mel -- or any other MSU employee -- contributed to the culture in a way that made the attack significantly more likely, it seems they could be on hook. But if not, then the only defendants would be the players themselves, who aren't likely to have deep pockets.
Did I miss anything?
November 1st, 2022 at 4:06 PM ^
I agree that anyone from MSU but the assailants will be hard to pin formal liability on. Again, the standard would be gross negligence and/or intentional conduct. Tuck going over the history of the rivalry with his players won't meet that standard. Specifically encouraging MSU players to injure Michigan players or assault them outside the confines of the game would, otoh, probably be grounds for liability, but there's no evidence of that. My guess is Green's attorney will try to embarrass MSU into settling before MSU is able to win a summary disposition motion. Might work, might not.
November 1st, 2022 at 1:15 PM ^
Would any MGoLawyers care to weigh in?
Nope.
November 1st, 2022 at 1:18 PM ^
Cool, thanks
November 1st, 2022 at 1:33 PM ^
All you're doing at this point is stirring a pot that's been left to simmer.
November 1st, 2022 at 1:46 PM ^
No I'm fucking not, i'm asking a question because IANAL and "premises liability" is a term I have seen thrown around as something that exists and could potentially be applied here. I even said in my first comment that my hunch is it doesn't apply. But, again IANAL.
November 1st, 2022 at 2:55 PM ^
Two points. One, no one knows anywhere close enough to form a legal opinion. Two, even if they did, seeking out legal opinions on a message board is like seeking out medical advice. You never know if they're right or not, and any given situation is probably far too specific for that general advice to amount to much. So, again. Let it simmer.
November 1st, 2022 at 4:03 PM ^
giggity
November 1st, 2022 at 2:02 PM ^
Who knows, but civil suits have a lower threshold in terms of burden of proof. Considering what happened when the boys played with their PB&J sandwiches at lunch the last time, an argument (not saying a winning one) could be made that we did not do enough to protect the players in the tunnel postgame.
November 1st, 2022 at 3:34 PM ^
I think Michigan would defend a "not doing enough" action the following way:
- Two weeks before the MSU game there was a negative interaction whereby shouting and throwing of sandwiches occurred, but no harmful physical altercation.
- As a result, we hired additional security in case such shouting / throwing of sandwiches looked to happen again and to help diffuse a similar situation.
- We in no way predicted, nor would have considered based on previous experience, the need to hire security capable of diffusing a 10:1 attack on one player and a 3:1 attack, with use of a potentially deadly object, on another player.
November 1st, 2022 at 12:58 PM ^
I mentioned this earlier in the thread that got nuked. He is always one of the first players in the tunnel and McBurrows usually walks with him. McBurrows was running to catch up to him. Sorry for the deep conspiracy types, they weren’t racing into the tunnel to pick a fight 2 on 100.
November 1st, 2022 at 1:01 PM ^
“Well then his dad should face charges too.”
—RCMB
November 1st, 2022 at 1:24 PM ^
LOL. RCMB "living in my mom's basement and living off my parents" posters would be all over this.
November 1st, 2022 at 3:53 PM ^
This is funny. And why it's funny is sad.
November 1st, 2022 at 1:02 PM ^
Valenti and Rico are the biggest fckin hacks on this planet. What a couple dirty scumbag whores that should be kicked off their “show” if 97.1 had any fckin balls.
November 1st, 2022 at 1:04 PM ^
Ratings.
November 1st, 2022 at 1:02 PM ^
I appreciate knowing this from the standpoint of thinking that's so cool his Dad does that to support his sons.
Regarding the incident, I think we should avoid the trap of trying to defend what doesn't matter. People want to obfuscate and fill the airwaves with noise to drown out the hard, cold facts.
Assault and battery took place. It is indefensible. Say it loud and say it often. That's the message that needs to drown all others.
November 1st, 2022 at 1:03 PM ^
Gemon Green could've been running up the tunnel to tweet antivax rhetoric while recording a TikTok to promote NFT's with Nickelback as the soundtrack and the MSQ players would be equally as guilty
November 1st, 2022 at 1:06 PM ^
I don’t give a shit about vaccinations, but you keep that Nickelback shit out of this message board. Do you hear me?!?!
November 1st, 2022 at 1:04 PM ^
Truth comes out.
Go Blue.
November 1st, 2022 at 1:09 PM ^
Truth comes out. But people have a long habit of just denying it if they don't like it.