Petition to Rename Columbus, OH to Flavortown

Submitted by MLD Woody on June 20th, 2020 at 2:56 PM

https://www.change.org/p/mayor-ginther-columbus-city-council-change-the-name-of-columbus-ohio-to-flavortown?recruiter=7952210&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=tap_basic_share&recruited_by_id=5e426d40-a83a-11e6-9060-add9ca63c063

 

Do your part to help make meaningful change in this country and sign the petition.

MGoBoard
FLAVORTOWN

GoBlueTal

June 21st, 2020 at 3:03 AM ^

" It's a shame that Tenzing Norgay's name isn't at least as famous."

See, now your talking some sense.

And don't think the Aztec are all bad.  They had some impressive engineering feats and maybe (maybe) had the biggest city in the world at one point and amazingly, built it on top of lake!!!!  They're assholes of the first order, and killed LIVE people as sacrifices, but my whole point tonight is that it's not black and white.  it's Grey, we have to look at what the Aztecs thought process was.  They really thought they were doing what their gods demanded.  Well, gods (small g) don't need any historical respect. FUCK THEM.  FUCK THEM RIGHT IN THE ASS WITH SPLINTERED WOODEN RODS.  big ones. Maybe pikes.  

Yep, passed the sober point, still, Fuck the Aztec gods, cuz really, I mean, seriously, those were some fucked up dudes.  

Joined: 10/15/2011

MGoPoints: 988

GoBlueTal

June 21st, 2020 at 12:18 AM ^

My favorite Christopher Columbus story - 

He was older, at an inn having dinner.  Two young men saw him and recognized him.  They came over, and said to him, 'What's so special about you?  Anyone could have sailed to the new lands, you're not important at all!"  Without a word he picked up a hard boiled egg, handed it to the young men, and asked them to please stand the egg on its end.  They tried and tried, but obviously failed.  Columbus took the egg, cracked the bottom end, and calmly placed the egg upright on the table, explaining, 'anything is simple once a genius shows the way.'

Sharklover, everything bad you've read about Columbus, especially the worst of it, all comes from a single historical source - and worse, the source is a man who hated Columbus - and economically profited from Columbus' downfall.  If your worst enemy who also wanted your job wrote a story about you, do you think it would be honest or flattering?  Herein lies the first failing in your hatred.  It's based on bullshit.  The guy wasn't a saint, bad shit happened - he wasn't nearly as bad a guy as you think he was.

The second failing is that you've got most of your facts dead wrong - slavery ended as a legal thing in the world in 1981.  The US was (relatively) early in the process, and is the only country to fight a civil war over the topic (Haiti was a slave revolution, I'm glad they succeeded, but that wasn't a civil war).  Don't give too much credit to Europe, they tended to eliminate slavery in their own countries not because it was an evil in and of itself, but because their growing industrial economies saw significant increases in population - so slavery was no longer economically efficient.  Yes, it was made illegal as a moral decision, but the US was one of only a few to kill slavery while there were still pragmatic reasons to keep it.  Please note that you brought up Haiti's revolution.  Who did the slaves rebel against?  Oh, Haiti was a French colony...  Yeah, the French kept slavery legal in the colonies, because it was profitable; classy, classy guys.  Oh, and even a cursory glance at a Dickens novel should help you understand that lack of slavery didn't suddenly make every British citizen a tea-drinking dandy.

You're still judging them on modern standards.  Do you have any idea how arrogant that is?  You know where the term 'barbarian' comes from?  Ancient Greeks thought the speech of everyone who didn't speak Greek sounded like "bar bar bar bar bar... "  And thus 'barbarian'.  Me, I seem to think their perspective is pretty barbarian, how 'bout you?  The point there is, you're painting these historical figures as though they should know and live by your morality.  Guess what, you're not worth putting on a pedestal either.  

What's worse?  That they changed history enough to help us learn better, and yet were still products of their time, or you trying to judge men you don't understand based on morality they didn't believe in.  

Hiding away our history in, "dark, shameful places" is the single best way to guarantee we won't learn those lessons.  This is 100% true.  Congratulations, you're inviting Jim Crow to happen again.  

*Slavery in the south was getting less efficient, but it was still viable, especially at scale.  Without the Civil War, it's viability depended entirely on new areas to expand the practice (thus the Mexican-American War).  


 

Joined: 10/15/2011

MGoPoints: 988

sharklover

June 21st, 2020 at 12:57 AM ^

  1. Christopher Columbus was removed from his command, arrested and brought back to Spain a prisoner due to his bad governance of the colony on Hispanola. That is a matter of historical record that is not rooted in his diaries.
  2. I did not bring up Haiti's revolution.
  3. I am not worthy of being put on a pedestal and I would criticize anyone that wanted to put me on a pedestal. Columbus wasn't worthy either.
  4. I never said we should hide any aspect of our history away. We should teach all of our history, warts and all. It's the glowing monuments that lionize and deify flawed individuals without any context that should be eliminated.

Joined: 11/30/2015

MGoPoints: 6140

GoBlueTal

June 21st, 2020 at 1:12 AM ^

1. He was removed based on the words of a rival who hated him and economically gained off his fall.  Do you think that source is credible as anything but a reference point?  I don't. 
2. Oops, I saw it in a different reply.  You're right.  So you weren't wrong about Haiti, but the point still stands.
3. YOU. ARE. NOT. QUALIFIED. TO. JUDGE. THESE. FIGURES.
4. You did, I quoted you, "dark shameful places".  That's hiding.  

Joined: 10/15/2011

MGoPoints: 988

sharklover

June 21st, 2020 at 1:35 AM ^

You take my quote completely out of context. I was writing about removing monuments that glowingly and heroically depict flawed and complicated characters:

"Remove them [them refers to the monuments, not all historical references] from their pedestals and the places of prominence. Simple as that. Smash them. Melt them down. Lock them [them refers to the monuments, not all historical references] away in a dark, shameful place. Replace them with statues of people that did not brutalize other people, own slaves or fight on behalf of slave owners to continue the practice of slavery. It's quite simple.

We should continue to teach history. We should continue to include the names of every president and politician that was ever elected in the United States. But any reverence that you shower on Washington, Jefferson or Cristobal god damned Colon should be tempered with an explanation of the fact that they knowingly and willfully did awful things to a lot of people."

Joined: 11/30/2015

MGoPoints: 6140

GoBlueTal

June 21st, 2020 at 1:57 AM ^

We covered most of this above.  But "glowingly and heroically depict flawed and complicated characters" ---

Outside of 3rd grade hand-print turkey making classes, do you really believe Columbus is taught as a _PURELY_ 'glowing heroic character' anywhere?  Some (better) teachers still teach him as he is, a spiritual man who was a product of his time.  Arrogant, determined, and with a sac bigger than the stupider-than-anything globe he was counting on circling, but also genuinely dedicated to bringing salvation to natives around the world.  *** you can try to judge him on that, but I'll beat you over the head for a week, that is his intent.  He truly believed that the peoples of Polynesia ("India") needed to find God to have their souls saved for eternity, and part of his goal was to help them.  It's easy in retrospect to look down our noses, but dude VERY REALLY risked his life sailing into nothingness **(in part)** to try to help people.  What the fuck have you done to match him?!? 

Joined: 10/15/2011

MGoPoints: 988

sharklover

June 21st, 2020 at 2:40 AM ^

I don't know. Seems like this is the standard monumental depiction of Columbus. Not a lot of context or nuance. 

In my personal experience, I definitely got a healthy dose of education about the Spanish conquest of Latin America in middle school and high school. But I learned a lot more reading Jared Diamond and Howard Zinn after graduating college.

 

Joined: 11/30/2015

MGoPoints: 6140

GoBlueTal

June 21st, 2020 at 3:17 AM ^

Not sure what I hit, but I accidentally tried to restart my computer (I'm a sysadmin by trade, so yeah, embarrassed) - so yeah, definitely past sober.  This is my last post tonight.

Statues are not about the man, they're about the intent.  Realize that statues tended to be built A) before the internet, and B) before there was a great deal of history available to the public.   Columbus was far from perfect.  But what he did, the spirit he represented.  That was worth noting.  His desire to go forth into the unknown.  His confidence he would find land (even if he was an idiot and thought the world MUCH smaller than it is), his faith ... it's inspirational.

It's the same sense that drives people forward in other endeavors.  And is worth noting.  

The man does not have to be perfect for the ideal to have merit.  

Joined: 10/15/2011

MGoPoints: 988

Ty Butterfield

June 20th, 2020 at 6:03 PM ^

So much hate for Christopher Columbus. I mean he hasn’t done much lately but Home Alone is a classic and Adventures in Babysitting is definitely underrated.

Joined: 09/07/2009

MGoPoints: -81685

Medfordblue

June 20th, 2020 at 6:21 PM ^

So how many slaves did John Adams own?  Never mind, we in Portland OR are doing our part.  Wrapped the head of a George Washington statue in an American flag then burned the flag and tore down statue leaving it to be painted with today’s slogans. Washington, first in war, first in peace, last in the eyes of the woke.

 

 

 

 

 

Joined: 02/08/2015

MGoPoints: 802

Sopwith

June 20th, 2020 at 6:21 PM ^

While we're at it, can we also change the name of our nation to "Flavor Country"? 

It's not like we're really all that united anyway. And we could have huge signs at the airports that say

WELCOME TO FLAVOR COUNTRY

(no smoking)

Joined: 06/29/2010

MGoPoints: 61200

MeanJoe07

June 20th, 2020 at 6:59 PM ^

We stand on the shoulders of giants and say that we're flying while spitting in their face. Columbus can be seen for who he was the good and the bad. To simply focus on the bad (all of which came from documents written by his chief political rival btw) and judge him by the woke standards of today is really anti-intellectual and stupid. There is nothing that shows that fixing "yesterday's" racism is the solution to today's problems. If we take this as a principle and bring it to it's logical conclusion, then anything can be racist if you just wait long enough. Whatever we propose or do today will be racist by the woke standards of the future, unless we just evaluate history for what it was and learn from it. We should not remove it from our memories and doom us to repeat the bad parts.

Joined: 09/15/2013

MGoPoints: 73336

jmblue

June 20th, 2020 at 9:00 PM ^

How meaningful would this change be?

Honestly, I don't consciously make the connection between the capital of Ohio and a 15th-century Genoan explorer very often.  At some point the name of a town becomes generic and you don't think about it that much, or at least I don't.  Like, how many people think about the fact that Ann Arbor's neighboring city is named for a hero of Greek independence?   

Joined: 11/07/2008

MGoPoints: 103061

kyeblue

June 20th, 2020 at 11:14 PM ^

Was Amerigo Vespucci any better than Christopher Columbus, I am afraid that merely changing the name of a city is not far enough. Shall we petition to change the name of the country too?

Joined: 09/18/2009

MGoPoints: 5371

MRunner73

June 21st, 2020 at 9:15 AM ^

Don't forget Columbus, GA or Columbus, IN. There are several other cities named Columbus. Will Wash DC take a second look at the Columbia part of that name?

How about abolishing all city, state, county and lake names after the Indians? Remember when EMU capitulated and changed their nickname Eagles because the Hurons was offensive? Do we change the name of Lake Huron? 

I could go on and on but you get the point. Will this madness ever end? Will we ever be able to appease "them"?

Joined: 11/11/2018

MGoPoints: 16966

sharklover

June 21st, 2020 at 10:14 AM ^

The problem with calling emu's athletic teams the Hurons was not that there was anything intrinsically bad about the word, Huron, it was that the there were no historical or present day connections between the University and the indigenous people whose name was being appropriated. CMU, on the other hand, has a partnership with the Saginaw Chippewas. So their use of the name was not deemed to be problematic.

Another example: there aren't any connections between the University of North Dakota and any indigenous people, yet the school mascot was 'the fighting Sioux.' Understandably, local tribes were upset by the appropriation of the name. Florida State, on the other hand, has ties to the local Seminole people, who whole heatedly endorse the team mascot and feel honored by the depiction. 

Notre Dame's mascot would be highly problematic if the school had not been founded by Irish Catholics. 

Not all native American mascots are bad, but some are. If you name your team out of claimed respect for a people that don't feel respected by the name, you should change it. If your name is offensive to a group of people and it has no historical merit, other than the fact that it's a tradition that dates back a couple decades, it isn't worth keeping.

Lake Huron is a historical place name that is rooted in the culture that lived here for centuries prior to European conquest. There name is wholely appropriate. 

Huron high school is fine because the name, Huron, is a place name (the school is named after the river it sits next to), not a mascot.

You are conflating totally separate issues and acting as if they are the same. Yes the issue is complicated and tiresome. But appropriating offensive caricatures of people and pretending like it's honoring them shouldn't be acceptable.

Joined: 11/30/2015

MGoPoints: 6140

sharklover

June 21st, 2020 at 12:59 PM ^

Good point.

I guess it would be splitting hairs to point out that Huron is the name of the high school, but the mascot is the river rats, whereas the Hurons were the University mascot. Slightly different application. But there definitely is a place name connection.

If they had dropped the logo with the silhouette of a generic native American man, maybe it would have been been less of an issue.

From what I remember, the two sides adopted maximalist positions, one arguing that all references to Hurons had to go and the other arguing that it was perfectly fine and no change or accommodations were necessary. Maybe there could have been room for compromise.

The whole thing seemed rather uncontroversial at the time, but I was just a kid. I remember seeing the once a Huron always a Huron bumper stickers now and again. But it's basically a commuter school with only token interest in athletics. Seemed like the only people that really got bothered buy the whole incident were a small minority of the alumni base.

Joined: 11/30/2015

MGoPoints: 6140

GoBlueTal

June 22nd, 2020 at 1:13 PM ^

Who decides when <naming> is offensive?  White people who think that the <group> might be offended?  Vocal busybody who claims they speak for 100% of <group>?  What happens if some of <group> approve of the use and others don't?  Cancel anyway?  

There certainly are questionable behaviors, but there's also good and simple and _respectful_ ways of handling these things.  If the Huron tribe as an entity sent a note to EMU (and why the HELL didn't they pick the fighting Emus?!?!  It's a bird, for goodness sake, and a cool one!  idiots) and said they weren't comfortable with EMU using their name, by all means, change it.  But changing it because a few people said so, or worse, because some woke asshole says so as some kind of virtue signaling move?!?  THAT'S offensive.  

Cancel culture is an abomination of mob justice.  It is the basest form of LACK of virtue, and anyone who engages with the practice should be ashamed.  There's not one whiff of "woke" involved, and it's the complete opposite of "progressive".  You want emotional mob culture?  You can find that shit before Sargon of Akkad.  Progressive?  HAH.  

 

Joined: 10/15/2011

MGoPoints: 988

blueday

June 21st, 2020 at 8:34 PM ^

The Democratic Party engaged in horrific and highly public attacks against Blacks. #BLACKLIVESMATTER. The Democrat Party's history is steep with supporting slavery and instrumental in putting up Confederate Monuments and Statues of pro-slavery leaders. The Democrat Party must now be torn down due to its Pro-Slavery past. Just seeing the Party Name of Democratic Party conjures up hateful anti-black and pro-slavery images from their past. #BLACKLIVESMATTER

Please change the party name to Socialists.

Joined: 11/04/2014

MGoPoints: 6493

Solecismic

June 22nd, 2020 at 6:03 PM ^

Stalingrad isn't currently in use. Good name, effectively illustrates the spirit of the petition. Hopefully it isn't a draw when it comes to recruiting.

I know there's a push to put an asterisk on everything from the past. And the winner gets to write the history. We know that. But having that asterisk and writing that additional text, whether it's on a statue or piece of fiction like Gone with the Wind, or an entire city... who writes that?

Does history get rewritten every couple of years on the totalitarian whim of the current government? At what point are we free just to enjoy art and if we are so inclined ourselves, go to the library (if those haven't yet been properly cleansed of unapproved titles) and find out more for ourselves?

What made the US unique was that our Founding Fathers understood that it should be up to every individual to take the responsibility to learn about the world - that freedom is a wonderful and delicate thing and we have to fight sometimes to keep people from rewriting history.

Were they perfect? No. Was Ye Olde America ever all that "great" for Americans who weren't white Christians? Address that positively and make change. But let's save the cleansing for our countertops and make sure we can all keep learning for ourselves. Time didn't stop in 1492 and it's not stopping in 2020, either.

Joined: 11/27/2016

MGoPoints: 7590