OT: WI supreme court strikes down governor's stay-at-home order
Posting this since MI (and most other states) have a similar dynamic playing out with respect to the conflict over state executive mandated lockdown/closures (to varying extents).
While there is a marked partisan political overtone to this (especially in WI and MI where Republican legislatures are fighting Democrat governors), nationally this is not an exclusive partisan issue (for example, OH Republican state legislature is fighting similar orders by the Republican governor). It is a more fundamental issue of defining the powers of a state's executive vs legislative branches during times or crisis (as well as what constitutes a time of crisis and how long it can last). This is getting into some uncharted waters since the nation is not at war, nor are the states under martial law - in a murky gray area that hasn't been much of an issue until late, especially at the state level.
I will not comment on whether the WI court's ruling was right or wrong (not sure there even is a "right" answer), but it is interesting to note that neither side in the case wanted to ruling to go into effect - a stay was requested by the plaintiffs in order to negotiate a compromise but the court refused. I'm not a professional legal scholar or practitioner, but I think that this recent health crisis will further define (or redefine) aspects of governing at all levels for years to come - with this ruling being the first of many to come (and many likely to be conflicting).
Interesting times.
Ok open up rural Michigan. Go do your hanging out at the bar and shit or whatever you wanna do. Just don't ever travel outside of Michigan and stay the eff away from me.
They say this is mostly affecting black people. Why would people in rural Michigan give a shit?
Big Gretch has my support. We're in step 3 of a 6 step program (started in the past two weeks) and some of y'all are just impatient. Ripping the band aid off is only going to cause more issues. We don't need to pack a bar right now, that's for damn sure.
Georgia was one of the last to enact a SIP and first to move out of it and they are seeing their lowest levels to date. It's possible that the cautious approach isn't the right one.
https://atlanta.cbslocal.com/2020/05/12/georgia-sees-lowest-ventilator-use-covid-positive-hospitalizations/
Hair helmet has been overly cautious. I think she needs to balance the economic impact better. I think the first month was mostly fine but since then she has created a long complex set of byzantine rules that are difficult to understand.
Going hard after a 77 year old barber who has no other income seems really punitive.
Also why is she on every talk show like "The View"? I would rather have her focus improving Michigan.
I am fine with opening up slowly but I think she has been overly restrictive and is not providing good guidance for small business for when the reopening does occur.
She is playing hardass on Trump so that Biden picks her as his VP ... Joe needs a junk yard dog as his running mate to latch on to Trump's leg and never let go. The people of Michigan are just a political pawn for her debut for that VP job.
This is an election year and both sides will do stupid things regarding this pandemic. Count on it.
If you look at the offshore betting odds, she's 11-1 to be the VP nominee. So I think it's a long-shot.
Picking a Governor right now would be difficult. They all have their hands full and likely will through the election. A Senator, OTOH...
Don't feel sorry for that 77 year old barber - he is very much a prima donna within that community and is known to pull this kind of stunt (source: several of my family members know him and his family personally). He was given several chances to avoid punishment yet refused (and no, he does not "need" the money). Curious side note: a family friend of ours has his old phone number as her own - she is getting all kinds of wild calls now: some supportive, some abusive, and some trying to book appointments.
Sub rosa war. The Civil War that never ended.
they were open, we have a couple in town and they were both full by 7pm
Lockdown and quarantine are to flatten the curve and prevent the spread to other areas. It's everywhere. It's too late and it's serve it's purpose. Social distancing is still makes sense though.
Agreed (my MGoArchEnemy) on flattening the curve, but not on preventing the spread to other areas. It was always going to hit everywhere eventually. Flattening the curve prevented our hospitals from being overwhelmed. Yes, the social distancing still makes sense given it helps to continue to flatten the curve.
I agree with you and MeanJoe. Social Distance is still important but in most cases that is not incompatible with life resuming to mostly normal (okay, so no big crowds, or avoid them). Masks can also serve an important function but should also be optional. We can maintain a flattened curve and restore our freedoms and economy too. The states which have already done a lot of re-opening are not experiencing a tsunami of new Covid cases. Georgia, for example, even with it's far from perfect re-opening launch, still has a flat to diminishing number of new Covid cases.
McDonald’s is open. Gyms are closed. And the #1 killer of Americans is heart disease.
I am in the worst shape of my life now that you mention it. At a time I should be prepared for a good fight.
trump did say we are at 'war' with the virus. or was that him just being sarcastic again?
Finally some common sense. I hope the same happens in Michigan to stop these tyrannical regimes from imposing their political agendas on citizens without legislative approval.
Let’s say, hypothetically, the stay at home order is ultimately over ruled and Wisconsin opens up, wide open, with very few restrictions, if any.
we should hope that succeeds. We should hope that their health system does not get overwhelmed and that, even as infections and deaths rise, it’s not too many to overwhelm their healthcare capabilities. IF (a huge if) that is accomplished - and we would know within a month if it is - then that would certainly be a great indicator that many places in the country could open back up.
that would be a good thing. A very good thing. I truly hope it works.
Georgia, Oklahoma, and Iowa are already in that category. Iowa did have a problem with the meat-packing plant but almost no one died in that outbreak. Georgia seems to have no adverse effects as yet. As always, time will tell. Wisconsin's Covid weren't very large to begin with so people there are chafing under the restrictions more than in many other states, just like Yoopers are chafing at being under the same restrictions as Detroiters.
This is what I don't get.
Instead of wishing death upon people doing things push the envelope (hi media!), we should all be hoping nothing happens.
I was nervous about the protests in Michigan because people weren't adhering to social distancing. Instead, it turned into another data point that being outdoors doesn't seem to cause significant spread.
Same with Georgia or Colorado opening up.
Its bizarre to see certain governors lauded as heroes when they are sending COVID patients into nursing homes while others are chastised for allowing outdoor seating at restaurants and opening beaches.
I admit, I'm watching people crowd bars in Wisconsin and I'm thinking "God that looks so dumb", but here's hoping it ends up okay.
200 people violating social distancing for a couple of hours isn't a data point.
Yes, people would be pretty happy if that happened. It's not a coin flip. The world isn't magic. The folks who know some things about these kind of things are telling us that's not what we should expect. So that's why some people are mad at the moment.
But again, if it turns out the world is magic and previous observations mean nothing, well, I guess that's good at least in this instance.
Slow response time screwed us into a full lockdown. As cases decrease, other options become available. Doing nothing and just opening up is insane. It would damage human life and health as well as the economy. Folks on the right and left need to present real plans to open up, so we can save our businesses while maintaining our humanity.
S. Korea
First Reported Case: January 20th
February: Immediately ramps up testing and implements mandatory mobile tracking. Businesses stay open.
Today: 26 new cases. 1,000 active cases. 260 total deaths.
USA
First Reported Case: January 20th
February and March: Denial, golf, no planning, little testing.
April: Full shutdown.
Today: 20,000+ new cases. 1,000,000 active cases. 85,000 deaths (probable underestimate, as100k-120k estimated excess deaths have occurred above normal).
What about Singapore? Fantastic initial response, then a massive uptick in cases.
"100k-120k estimated excess deaths have occurred above normal" - can you cite a source for that?
You're arguing the death total point why? Do you think it's drastically lower? Your quote is about international data. US data is readily available. CDC has public data for the US. Two separate lines (direct testing and CDC overall deaths) indicating we're close to 100,000 so let's not quibble.
You're bringing up Singapore why? Say what you're suggesting. Sounds like you want to say it's all random, nothing works so just open up and give up. If not, what? But it is a good question on Singapore. Don't you wish we were exploring it? One possible reason is that it has overcrowded dormitories for hundreds of thousands of foreign workers, making isolation impossible. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/05/03/849135036/singapore-was-a-shining-star-in-covid-control-until-it-wasnt
when trump ordered a travel ban pelosi brought up a bill in the house to prevent it, and biden called the move 'hysterical xenophobia'. who was in denial?
at the end of february pelosi is down in china town telling people to come visit, see the prosperous shops and enjoy the food. who was in denial?
reqeusts for funding for CDC and testing was going on at the same time but pelosi wouldn't bring the bill to the floor to be voted on. you know what she brought that week? a bill to ban flavored tobacco. who was in denial?
in march you had various leaders in NY telling people it was no danger, come visit. who was in denial?
They were both wrong. Dems were in denial and focused on impeachment, Trump was ecstatic he got to embrace his xenophobia. What else did he do?
As I said, denial.
There's no question that Trump deserves his share of the blame (like just about every other western leader), but its pretty wild watching history being rewritten before our eyes.
We're now supposed to believe that actually, every Democratic politician knew this was super serious as early as January and were really pushing for action on it (when as you've pointed out above and I've pointed out before, there's no way that Nancy Pelosi would want to be on camera telling people to get out on the town in late February if that were the case. And please don't tell me that Nancy Pelosi doesn't have sources that wouldn't clue her on foreign issues/intelligence briefings).
The doctor that everyone tells him to defer to (Fauci) was on TV at the end of February telling Americans that at that moment there was nothing to be concerned about.
Cool, blame Trump, but put it in the proper context.
Just to clarify with this Chinatown nonsense. Genetic analyses shows that nearly all US covid outside of Washington came by way of Italy (through NYC).
Pelosi's late February chinatown comments came before any reported cases in San Francisco.
Fauci told people that there was little individual risk at the time, which was true. He was not suggesting that the issue wouldn't grow or that our government should pretend nothing was happening.
Finally, every day counted with this disease. While some people may have seen this coming in January, others certainly took longer. There was pretty universal understanding of the seriousness by the end of February, yet Trump stood alone in mid March - weeks after your last damning comment from another politician - claiming it would go away like it was nothing. He had the most information, missed the mark by the furthest, and holds the most power to prepare and protect us.
There's your context.
Northern Italy has/had in excess of 100,000 Chinese Nationals in residence. They had taken over much of the Italian leather and clothing trade in the past few years, so they can still slap on that prestigious "made in Italy" tag. There were daily direct flights from Wuhan to Italy, which continued for weeks after China knew they had a big problem and while they were using The WHO to assure the world that there was not. So sure, some of the cases "came from Italy" but that is highly misleading without the context.
Italy got it from China. It spread in Italy. US got it from Italians or Americans (or other Chinese) or whoever contracted it after the disease had passed around some time in Italy. Not sure how what I said is misleading in any meaningful way.
Yeah I don’t get the point. “Pelosi told people to go eat food in China town”. Okay so? So because the speaker of the house said something that means that the President is right? I mean what’s the logic there? One was elected as the head of the United States. And wields a lot of power and influence. The other is one of 435 members of half of a government branch. Sure she’s one of the more prominent members but I’ve never seen an executive order come from the speaker of the house.
When your argument is “but but Pelosi and Biden and dems!” It’s clear you have no leg to stand on and all your doing is trying to point fingers and someone else.
It’s a complete nonsequitor.
Lol she has Adam Schiff intelligence Committee chairman to tell her the truth. He had incontrovertible evidence lol.
When Harry Truman said, The Buck Stops Here, we as Americans loved it. It showed strength and leadership to take responsibility, because we all thought the President of the United States was the most powerful office in the land. But I guess that's gone by the wayside for this president. When did we decide it was ok to let the President off the hook? I grew up in a Republican household and I can tell you my late father would be sickened by what's happening now. The GOP has become the party of victimization. The current guy? Not his problem. Instead, in a national crisis, we're blaming a congressperson from California. Shame.
I would argue that the 85,000 death number is inflated as hospitals have been given incentive to count everything as C-19. Could the other excess deaths be due to other health issues being ignored?
Republican playbook in 2020:
1) Blame minorities
2) Call science “left wing” conspiracy
3) Keep rural voters voting red even tho they are federal welfare leaches by blaming #1
4) Defund public education thus maintaining #2 #3 and #1 easier
5) Lie, cheat and steal via gerrymandering and obfuscation since majority of this country doesn’t GAF about your backward ass party anymore
Fuck Republicans.
You add nothing but partisan extremism to this discussion.
He adds truth, everything he pointed out is true...but believe any of Trumps, 15,000+ lies. Yes, theres educated people that actually track this stuff...
Pointing out that he is adding nothing but partisan extremism does not make me a Trump supporter. In fact I am not a Trump supporter; I am a political independent. Trump cultists and leftist idealogues are closer to each other than anyone in the middle is to either of them.
Current partisan extremism began once Obama was elected in 2008. However, it’s been systemic sabotage by the right for the past 20 years.
Nothing is more clear than the fact that the Trump administration purposefully leaving vital Federal Dept positions vacant or positioning completely ill-equipped people to run things like the Dept of Energy, USDA, Dept of Education etc.
Right, because Bush's treatment wasn't partisan extremism - because Clinton's impeachment wasn't partisan, because the Civil War wasn't partisan, because Hamilton and Jefferson spatting in the first cabinet wasn't partisan... FUCK because Julius Caesar's assassination wasn't partisan.
The first "paragraph" is stupid in the extreme, the second phrase is incomplete. One hopes that you're an M alum, work harder on writing in a way that demonstrates this please.
“Current”
As an M alum, I’d hope you learned how to read at an elementary level.
Bush actually filled cabinet spots and deputy positions w competent people who were qualified ie. physicists in charge of energy etc. Republicans won’t even do that now. It’s blatant sabotage.
Bush’s treatment was light work compared to the bullshit Obama experienced from the birther movement to his wife being hassled 24/7 for helping children nutrition (which studies actually showed working in rural and urban America until Trump gutted the program). Meanwhile the tramp, I mean Melania, in the White House can plagiarize her and get away with it without a problem.
The double standard is illuminating. Fuck Republicans
I can track extreme partisan behavior back through every leadership of every country from Trump to Sargon of Akkad. You're an idiot if you believe it's anything new. But then, you've already demonstrated you're an idiot and a bigot. Congrats, you're the problem facing our country.
How’s your ass feeling from the fence sitting you love to do?
You're even worse bc you love to mock everyone who actually has the balls to take a side. Fucking coward.
EDIT: Nvm judging by your hilariously stupid comments earlier in the thread,it seems like you’re actually a MAGAt. Pointless responding to you.
cube, i can't resist one comment about your numerous flaming posts. just above you be-moaned the 'birther' conspiracy vs. obama. you do know who pioneered that, right? hillary and her (unsuccessful) primary campaign against him.
i hope you get some help, get outdoors, meet some nice folks. wherever you are, it must be very difficult and you need a break big fella.
I'm honest about history so that makes me a fence-sitter? Honesty is not partisan. LIES are partisan.
I'm not ashamed to admit I'm a conservative (not partisan Republican, but yes, I lean right). I believe that humans are capable of more if we demand it of them. I believe that people are, by and large, grown ups capable of independent thought - knowing what's in their own best interests, and in giving them enough space to make mistakes as that leads to wisdom. I believe in local governments and not national governments, because my local government does answer to me, my national government does not. I believe in republican government not democracy, because democracy is tyranny, as the founding fathers taught me.
I'm also not ashamed to admit my two best friends are both liberals, that we challenge each other, and listen and I'm not a bit ashamed to admit they've changed my mind sometimes (as I have theirs). I respect and in some ways admire them both; they're open minded, intelligent, and good people. We each share goals, their solutions inspire and improve my ideas, as I know mine do theirs. Sometimes we disagree and that's ok.
You can call me any name you want, you've already openly stated that you're a bigot. Nothing you can say about my character has a shred of value. In fact, for a bigot to disagree with me is something I'm genuinely grateful for, so thanks.