OT: Talking Cars Tuesday - It's electric
Better late than never!
Anyway - on to our topic for the week. The big Auto news (somewhat befuddling to me) is the Tesla Model 3 and how excited folks are for it. So - electrics. Do you think you'd buy one? What would it take to get you to buy electric? Are you waiting for something? I'll answer in the comments as per normal...
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I'm not a big "planet" person but aren't batteries and such worse for the environment than burning up fossil fuels? Seems like they're trying to fix one problem while starting another.
Like anything, it depends. Big diesel machines currently are used to mine lithium. The cradle-to-grave (or cradle-to-recycling) of any vehicle is hard to do, and yes, electric cars are probably a bit worse in assembly than "conventional" vehicles. But then they're "cleaner" depending on where you live. If you get your power from solar/wind/nuclear that's cleaner than coal.
EV's cost far less to maintain then gas cars. No fluids, less moving parts, simpler designs, more modularity. They will change everything, including the service business.
As far as impact goes, charge your car off your own solar system and get two monopolies out of your life while simulataneously being as clean as it gets. This strategy is now far more affordable than most realize. In California it actually costs you less than paying gas and utiity bills. Thus, the revolution begins...
Electric cars will be a toy for certain types. Petrol powered engines are still evolving and if technology increases their efficiency and emissions, electric cars will never gain a massive foothold. While VW has done a huge disservice for diesel, diesel had potential as diesel engines are efficient and have become much more cleaner. I'd take a diesel over electric any day. You get great torque, great mileage and no issues with changing weather. Electric cars do not perform as well in cold climates. And add that gas powered engines are getting closer to performance of diesels with turbo and supercharging among other advances. Also add the time to charge a car. Again, the tech isn't there yet. Now, there is also hydrogen. That tech has lagged unfortunately. Producing hydrogen isn't cheap and storage/delivery is an issue. Same with electric. You have to produce electricity and the cheapest form of it is from coal which is being driven out of business by those with an agenda. Clean energy is not efficient enough nor abundant. The misnamed "fossil fuel" shows evidence that the earth replenishes itself. It could possibly be that OIL is a renewable energy itself. The day is coming that we will see an efficient 3 or 4 cylinder block with sufficient boost that give power and efficiency with great gas mileage. Ford is selling in EU a 3 cylinder engine in the Focus.
Coal produces a lot more CO2 than natural gas. There was a time when Coal was the best option. however, times have changed. Technology has advanced. European Oil & Gas companies have found more gas reservoirs. Thus the move towards natural gas as bridging fuel continues.
There is no single source solution for energy. It is most probably going to be a combination of both sources, hydrocarbons and renewables.
Unfortunately higher-than-expected fugitative emissions have more or less eliminated any greenhouse gas advantage NG had over coal. Fracked natural gas is a bridge to nowhere. Renewables are now cheap and ready to go. Only an extrememely powerful status quo stands in the way of full-scale energy revolution. EV's are an essential weapon in that fight.
1. what is fugitative?
2. how would that energy revolution look like? for US? for Asia? for Africa?
I am not sure why you got negged for this. I upvoted you to show my agreement with your points. The some folks completely miss is Europeans are not going green completely out of the good of their heart. There is a business case for them to push the renewables as US has not caught up to it yet.
Anyway, I like your points. And they make sense. However, they are the natural progression of the system. Bluepow mentioned that an energy revolution is stymied by entrenched interests. So I was asking what would that revolution look like.
Methane is an 80x worse greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide. Fortunately, it degrades over a couple of decades unlike CO2 which is basically fundamentally changing the atmosphere for centuries. We are on a one-way road and the final effects are scary latent. It's kind of a bummer...but high-quality EV's and clean energy are a small beacon of light.
I wrote a reply to Blue in dc before your reply showed up. I guessed fugitive but wasn't sure. When you mentioned revolution, I assumed a much shorter span of time than the speed at which the renewables are going to go in the foreseeable future.
Back in the 20th Century, there was a push for solar adoptation in India. Mostly due to the lack of access to Crude in the international market and due to the lack of infrastructure in most of the country. Necessity being the mother of invention and such.
But that slowly went away as the Crude supply and India's access to foreign currency increased. It's good to see a renewed push even though the world is awash with oil for the next couple of years.
Without the squggly red line I am lost. :)
The difference today with renewables compared all previous incarnations is price. Solar and wind are now cheap and getting cheaper. You wont hear that everywhere because transitioning our energy system transfers literally trillions of dollars of wealth from the status quo to new entrepreneurs.
In the 20th century cost was an issue. No longer. The only concern now is delay. We have already baked in great disruption with climate change (unlike every other envrionmental challenge when you stop emitting the problem does not go away - it continues to get worse), the only question is how bad will the train wreck be. This is the challenge of the century and frankly an opportunity for Gen X to show some leadership and actually do something great finally.
Welcome aboard.
And he loves it. But he lives and works in Silicon Valley, so there are rapid charging stations everywhere.
Like most people I'd only buy one once the range, "refueling" time, and price was competitive to gas powered cars..
While Tesla has been rightfully criticized for their uninspired interior finishing, it's performance vs ANY sedan more than makes up the difference. Throw in the over-the-air updates that constantly keeps your car up to date with latest tech (freakin' autopilot!) and that's more than enough to get me to make the leap.
Point taken though.
/damn she was hot 30 years ago
One of the things that I hate about most hybrid/electric vehicles is their looks. As good as the i8 looks, the i3 looks terrible. I don't like the shape of the Prius/Volt/Insight. I know people gush about Tesla's design, but their design doesn't do it for me. The S' front end looks like a catfish. The 3 looks like a kidnapped Aston Martin with duct tape over the Aston's stunning grill. These visual associations have kind of ruined those cars for me. There's a Tesla in my work parking lot and it just doesn't do it for me.
To answer the question at hand though, would I buy an electric car? Yes. But I would agree with what has been said about being wary of the current available technology. I'm not going to the dealership to reserve one and put down a $1,000. I'm glad others are more enthusiastic because it will help the technology grow and develop, but it's not for me at the moment.
I, like JeepinBen, am a staunch proponent of manual transmissions. I think that it would be hard for me to move off of that. It's not just about the sportiness or control for me. It's about being mentally focused on the road. Having to administer that control keeps me engaged with what's going on on the road. I'm not getting distracted by other things because I can't get distracted. It makes a huge difference in my driving, I think.
of the electric car, but I'm also with you on my love for the manual transmission. You are one of the few to bring up the point that a manual is better at keeping you focused on driving - I have always felt this way as well, but I cannot think of seeing it brought up anywhere else. I'd like to see a study of accidents that compares manual trans to automatic where distracted driving is the known cause. I can't prove it it but I feel that if you learn on a stick, you learn to be more 'in touch' with what is going on with the car and it stays with you no matter what you drive.
I think I could have an electric as a 2nd car to drive back and forth to work, errands, etc. Minus the manual trans. issue, my problems with an electric being a primary vehicle are range and time to charge - mostly time to charge.
Not yet. I'd have to drive WAY more to justify it. Right now, my daily roundtrip commute when I go to the office is <9 miles. Of course, I also travel quite a bit and take a taxi to the airport. If I were to do my oil changes every 3,000 miles, it'd probably be 1 oil change per year.
On the quicker charging time, I know one poster is being facetious about charging in 2 minutes (particularly given that even the most advanced smartphones on the market today can't even do that), but how long are we talking for a full charge?
My biggest reservation with a full electric vehicle right now is the range and running out of charge somewhere without nearby access to a charging station.
I have a 2016 Cadillac ELR and its awesome. I commute 10 miles round trip so basically never have to get gas. The electric motor is great, super torque-y. I can break the 20" wheels free in sport mode. And the added bonus is that the ride is incredibly quiet. I might never go back to an ICE.
there might also be a future for the gas engine as a generator and electric battery car as cars like the Honda Accord Hybrid have. Full electric might not survive if that's the case.
It makes me want to neg all of your posts for some reason, even when I agree with what you're saying.
Was a reckless punk rocker who got into trouble in Ann Arbor during a performance. He ended up ODing. And why is it that you'd neg me just because of an avatar. Are people that superficial on here? That's not what true Michigan men do.
Sorry, I am not. My apologies all around.
Very few are familiar with reality; he is not alone.
Thanks. I hate punk with the heat of 1,000 suns.
And yes, much like in real life, people are superficial on the internet. A nice ass in a pair of Michigan panties almost always gets an upvote from me.
You mention the best reason for EV's to take over the market: a distinctly different and superior driving experience. This is coming from a guy that also likes manual transmissions, but gas can't touch the quiet and grabby performance of an EV.
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Also, being able to set "Go Times" to warm-up your car on plug-in electricity is awesome. When we got like 5 inches of snow, I kept my car at 85 degrees all day (on company electricitry) and came out to a perfectly cleaned off car.
Stick it to the MAN!!!! Great idea. Makes those cold days more tolerable to have a balmy interior waiting for you at the end of a long day at work.
Diesel electric trains are very efficient and reliable, so why hasn't that technology been tried on cars?
I do prefer steam engines though.
Long answer? More details about cost.
Diesels are inherently more expensive than gasoline engines, but they're also more efficient thermally (Thanks Professor Assanis!) If you figure a typical hybrid upcharge is about $4,000, and a typical diesel upcharge is about $4000... you're now $8,000 in on just a powertrain. That kind of upcharge for powertrains are rare, especially in any volume.
Maybe it would work on large trucks though? Make semi's more efficient?
There's a lot of questions about the instant torque from electric motors and towing however. Can the drivetrain handle it? Plus you've got questions about weight - batteries are heavy. The cost-benefit math hasn't worked out to this point, but maybe it will eventually.
We'll probably see it in a pickup before a Semi because of scale, but a (full) hybrid truck isn't too far off.
(Not counting the GM mild hybrid trucks and SUVs. They weren't efficient enough to live on)
At 300,000 reservations and counting, I think we're beyond using the word "niche" to describe at least the Model 3 incarnation of electric vehicles.
300,000 reservations globally. Tesla hasn't delivered 300,000 cars yet - AS A COMPANY.
83,000,000 auto sales globally last year. (http://www.wsj.com/articles/global-car-sales-growth-decelerated-in-2015-on-south-america-russia-1454089048)
I think if a company, any company, can get 300,000 people to dish out $1000 for something they haven't even seen yet you probably shouldn't underestimate that companies potential. Just sayin...