O/T: Talking Cars Tuesday: The Death of Chrysler?
I read an article today in which different analysts suggested that the merger of FCA and PSA would end up eliminating chrysler. The 300 hasn't been touched and likely will be retired soon; leaving Chrysler with 1 product; the Pacifica. Not much to go on.
I admit this makes me sad. My car buying history has split between Chrysler (products) and Ford; and honestly I've had good luck with all the brands. I put 190K miles on a Dodge Intrepid; 205K on an XJ, 240K on a ZJ (God I loved the 318); and 205K on my old Five Hundred. Now I have a 300 AWD that has the 8spd/3.5 liter and I get 30 on the Highway and 21 around town. The biggest problem in them all was that they all rusted out at the end. Most of my uncles worked for either Ford or Chrysler.
I'm bummed by the loss of Chrysler if it happens, but without them putting money into product, and without them having any SUV's, I just don't see it happening.
So, what about it, those in the know; any chance Chrysler could get resurrected with the infusion of cash in an attempt to get more margin on some brands? I'd love to see an upscale version of something built on the Cherokee platform; and Durango platform. Maybe try again with the Alpine?
I'm not a fan of SUV's or wagon's so much anymore; but I don't know that you can build a company with a future around Jeep and RAM.
January 21st, 2020 at 11:44 AM ^
There are all sorts of rumors floating around about their future. My father-in-law works for GM and he's heard for a bit now that GM has been exploring purchasing Jeep, but I'm not sure that makes much sense when GMC is their all-SUV brand and having two of those under one umbrella doesn't make much sense to me. My money is on Chrysler being discontinued, Ram and Jeep being retained, and Dodge being reduced a bit (only SUVs and the Charger with the Challenger being discontinued and brought back every once in a while).
On a random note, I genuinely think Dodge needs to release an all-electric version of the Charger. It would be so damn funny. "I need to charge my Charger."
January 21st, 2020 at 12:09 PM ^
"Honey? Have you seen the Charger charger anywhere?"
January 21st, 2020 at 12:09 PM ^
Ive been buying Ford ever since they decided NOT to take Govt Bail out money (taxpayer dollars) while all the others did
January 21st, 2020 at 12:13 PM ^
Mainly because they saw what was coming a couple years before the crash and mortgaged the entire company for $27 billion to restructure it. Literally every single asset and all their IP was borrowed against IIRC. A supremely ballsy move in my opinion.
As long as the Ford family maintains effective control of that company (and it always will because of the way their corporate bylaws and stock classes are structured), I wouldn't bet against them in the long term.
January 21st, 2020 at 12:59 PM ^
I was teaching a finance class at the time that Ford setup that line of credit. High interest rate to reflect risk. It was a super strong move and brilliant in hindsight.
January 21st, 2020 at 12:52 PM ^
What do you eat now that you can't buy food from bailed out farmers?
January 21st, 2020 at 12:10 PM ^
It's time to embrace Tesla! Internal combustion engines in daily drivers are going to be a thing of the past.
January 21st, 2020 at 12:15 PM ^
Cool! Email me when they're comparable in every way to a gas powered car and I'll buy one.
January 21st, 2020 at 12:19 PM ^
What are your reservations? Like most electric drivers, now that I have converted, I will never be going back to ICE.
Throw some questions at me that make you think an electric wouldn't work for you.
January 21st, 2020 at 12:30 PM ^
1. I'm not rich, and they cost a lot.
2. It gets really cold up here. -20 on the regular.
3. 600 mile trips to Michigan through the UP on the regular.
4. I usually need to do a lot of my own work, and there are fewer components I can work on. See #1.
It is great that people who want to buy hybrids and electrics have more options now. Consumer choice is good! Market pressure helps develop more and better products, which is good for everybody.
But the idea that someone who doesn't want a product is just wrong, not thinking clearly, needs to be corrected, is supremely condescending. Sometimes people actually have good reasons for their preferences.
January 21st, 2020 at 12:40 PM ^
Thanks for the response. I agree, that an electric isn't for everyone. But I also think a lot of folks in the backyard of the BIG 3 are misinformed on them.
1. I'm not rich, and they cost a lot.
Agree with you - They are expensive up front. Maintenance is much less though.
2. It gets really cold up here. -20 on the regular.
That shortens your range, but outside of that, your battery on your ICE is more likely to have an issue than the battery on your Tesla. The controllable power to the wheels on an electric leads to better traction as well.
3. 600 mile trips to Michigan through the UP on the regular.
600 mile trip would require 2 stops at a supercharger for 15-20 minutes. 30 minutes in time may mean more than the savings in gas money. Autopilot makes a 600 mile trip much more pleasant.
4. I usually need to do a lot of my own work, and there are fewer components I can work on. See #1
Not much to be done on an electric. No oil changes, brake life lasts very long (regenerative braking is great), there isn't really anything to be done besides charge the car and get new tires. I know to some people the lack of being able to work on the car may be a downside.
January 21st, 2020 at 12:55 PM ^
I was stunned to find that 98% of the golf carts at The Villages are gasoline powered. If they don’t use electric, why would anyone? It seems like the perfect battery environment.
January 21st, 2020 at 1:04 PM ^
Re: Point 3: You must not be from Michigan. The UP (and most of Michigan north of Saginaw) is very sparsely populated and remote. There are very few places where a supercharger is likely to exist. In fact, once you get north of Gaylord, the next place you can charge would be either Wausau, WI (375 miles) or Duluth, MN (475 miles). A supercharger in Marquette would change things, but only if you plan on going to Marquette. Want to spend a week in the western UP? You're SOL for the foreseeable future. But every tiny one-stoplight town in this country has a gas station.
FWIW: I'd be very open to going electric once I can still go to wild and remote places and find enough chargers to get me there and back.
January 21st, 2020 at 2:08 PM ^
I spent the first 23 years of my life in Michigan, but never headed past Manistee.
I agree my example of a great daily driver would not fit in your scenario. Given the amount of 2 car families out there, this is where I would use the ICE.
The average person drives around 14k miles a year. I assume these 1,200 mile round trip examples are once or twice a year?
January 21st, 2020 at 3:12 PM ^
Not to side track but.....14,000 miles per year? Good grief, we hit 26,000 per year without anything I can think of that could be called excessive or out of the ordinary. Maybe that average needs to be adjusted for region, urban/rural, etc.
January 21st, 2020 at 3:21 PM ^
Just for reference.
https://www.autogravity.com/autogravitas/money/whats-average-miles-driven-per-year-car-lease-guide
At $2.50 a gallon and 20 miles per gallon, youre spending $3,250 a year on gas alone.
Charging at home would cost you about $1,300 for that amount of miles.
January 21st, 2020 at 1:08 PM ^
Cost is the main issue for me. I prefer to buy used cars, because I like nicer models than I can afford. So I'll probably get a Tesla when they're available for 20k in good shape.
They've had some quality problems (growing pains mostly I think) and there's no dealership network to handle them. I've seen more than a few getting towed in SE MI, and there are not that many in the area to begin with. Elon needs to suck it up and start selling dealerships.
There also isn't much info available regarding long-term dependability. How long is the suspension going to last? How much to replace it? What about all those fancy electronics? Bet those won't be cheap to fix. I keep cars for a LONG time, so that's a major concern for me.
They're heavy, so they go through tires like 2x as fast as a comparable sedan. And you have to use good tires.
Even with all that, if I made 50% more per year I'd have driven on into work today.
January 21st, 2020 at 1:42 PM ^
Yep, I don't need a bunch of bullet points, it's Cost. I paid 22k for my commute car a year and half ago. Make an electric car with about 240 miles range, with the "must have" options I got with this car for less than 25k, and I'm sold. Until then, electric cars are for people with more money than sense.
January 21st, 2020 at 2:13 PM ^
I was most surprised by tire use. Last sports car I had was a Mustang and I was lucky to get 15k miles out of a set of tires. My current performance Model 3 has 20k miles on it and I still have a good amount of tread life left.
Mustang 0-60 in 5.4 seconds
Performance Model 3 0-60 in 3.1 seconds
I drove/drive both aggressively, but the Tesla doesn’t let me break the tires free.
My 9 year old cousin could get a 3.1 0-60 out of the car.
January 21st, 2020 at 1:16 PM ^
To me, the larger problem than necessarily finding superchargers is that if you want to go to specific remote locations, electric cars may not have the necessary range to get somewhere. For example, my favorite backpacking location in Oregon is the Wallowa Mountains, and my preferred trailhead to start hiking from is roughly 130 miles from the nearest supercharger (and ~1500ft higher in elevation). While a Tesla might be able to make that, I don't know what the elevation change does to the projected range of electric vehicles.
I took a week-long camping trip to Yellowstone last year, and there's gas stations in the park but nowhere to plug in (we do tent/hammock camping, generally staying away from the RV areas with electric hookups). We drove probably 400 miles around the park over 7 days, but none of it was towards West Yellowstone, which is the nearest supercharger location. I'd rather not have to plan a vacation around being able to charge my car.
For daily commuting, I can totally see myself driving an electric vehicle. For outdoor recreation purposes, until there's a considerably larger adoption of charging stations in remote areas, I'll still need to have an ICE vehicle available.
January 21st, 2020 at 1:47 PM ^
Whenever I can I get out to Colorado (not often enough), and in the past have done solo day-hiking trips in the Front, Mosquito, Sawatch, and San Juan ranges; with my wife we've done extended trips in the canyon country in southern Utah.
In all of these trips, I've ended up in some fairly remote country, places that you don't want to get stranded in... being stranded with a dead battery is one thing near civilization, but it's entirely another at 8,000 ft with bad weather moving in.
Unless and until charging stations are as ubiquitous as gas stations are, I can't see getting an electric for anything other than local commuting. Since I work at home, my commute is pretty short.
January 21st, 2020 at 2:34 PM ^
Are you sure about Colorado? Looking at the map with destination and supercharging available, there seems like decent coverage.
https://www.tesla.com/destination-charging
To all of the comments around the Upper Peninsula, looks like Marquette is slated for some superchargers this year.
January 21st, 2020 at 3:08 PM ^
thats great, but again, you'd have to plan a UP trip around Marquette.
I think the general consensus is until they are as prevalent as gas stations, they're just not going to be too many people interested in electric. Also, the 20+ min or so to charge is annoying to me. I can fill my tank and be back on the road in 5 minutes.
As a daily commuter in a urban area, its a great option if you have a bunch of money and have a regular vehicle as a second car. But for anyone only wanting to own one vehicle, and still have the freedom to go wherever you want for a weekend/vacation, electric is just not gonna cut it. No one wants to plan a vacation or a weekend getaway around where the next available charging stations are.
January 21st, 2020 at 3:45 PM ^
100% this. When there's a supercharger every 10-20 miles a la gas stations, and, they can recharge the battery in 10 minutes or less to approximate a gas station stop, I may kick the tires on an EV.
A co-worker I ski with owns a Tesla and has to stop at the supercharger in Silverthorne for 30-40 min every time we head up. For this fact alone, I refuse to ride with him. My Yukon can make 3 round trips (from Fort Collins!) on a single tank and I also come out 2 hrs ahead in cumulative time saved.
January 21st, 2020 at 4:57 PM ^
I just looked at the map, and there's not a single currently-operating charging station between Trinidad and Durango, and Durango has all of 2 chargers. That's a big stretch of lonely territory without any ability to charge.
On top of that, what if I get to Durango and they're both being used? I'm supposed to wait 40 minutes while the guy ahead of me is charging?
January 21st, 2020 at 1:37 PM ^
There isn't a single Supercharger in the entire UP. You'd have to make it all the way through the UP and down to Gaylord before you get to one.
January 21st, 2020 at 1:50 PM ^
600 mile trip in a gas car means two five-minute stops at a gas station (one if you filled up the day before or something.) Also, I think you're overrepresenting charging times. Here's a test of the Tesla V3 supercharger that shows 233 miles in 28 minutes:
https://www.motortrend.com/news/teslas-v3-supercharger-tested/
In perfect weather conditions, of course. Realistically speaking, you won't get 200 miles in 15 minutes....it'll be closer to 25. 15 minutes might get you 150-175 miles. For a 600 mile trip.....we're probably talking about adding an hour or so. I can get 350 miles in just five minutes filling a gas tank. This kind of thing is too big a tradeoff for me. I'll check back on electrics when they improve the charging time and the up-front cost.
Personally I'm soon to be in the market for a new car, and I'm waiting to see what the Escape PHEV is like. Particularly what it costs. PHEVs to me are most of the benefits of electrics without the tradeoffs. Range anxiety is gone, but I can still commute mostly on electric.
I agree with stephen.....my impression is that electric evangelists seem to think people are silly for not buying electric, when in reality, for 17 million new-car purchases a year, there are 17 million different sets of criteria for buying a car. "The average commute is only......!" they often say, but people buy cars for their likely maximum need, not average need. Electric-only cars have a lot more improvement to do before I want one.
January 21st, 2020 at 4:59 PM ^
"people buy cars for their likely maximum need, not average need."
An excellent and central point, especially for those people who have only one vehicle.
January 21st, 2020 at 12:47 PM ^
I'd like to hear your thoughts on towing a small camper. My wife and regularly criss-cross the US with our small camper in tow (either behind her Escape or my Ranger). I would tend to think that towing would greatly increase the re-charge events and the distance between those events would be foreshortened.
January 21st, 2020 at 1:04 PM ^
I can't personally speak to the experience as i have never towed. But, the below article states that they stopped every 200 miles to eat and charge while they traveled.
January 21st, 2020 at 1:40 PM ^
I literally can't imagine stopping that often on a long trip. Other than gas, when I'm on the road there is generally ONE stop for lunch in the middle of the 12 hours of driving.
January 21st, 2020 at 3:11 PM ^
What you just described sounds like the farthest thing from a vacation. 12 hours in a car, 30 minutes at a fast food spot.
January 21st, 2020 at 5:04 PM ^
There are millions of Americans who have to drive long distances to get to where they're vacationing, and don't see the utility or sense in spending any more time on the road getting there than they have to, especially if they're on a restricted time frame.
January 21st, 2020 at 5:27 PM ^
I completely respect the time you reference in that scenario, which is why i would personally fly in that scenario.
I understand an EV is not ideal for a 700 mile straight through road trip. There are rental companies though that operate off of unlimited miles. A few years from now that range may no longer be an issue, as the Cybertruck is quoting up to 500 miles.
I moved 3 weeks ago, i rented a truck to move some items that the movers didn't. By some views here, I should have an F-150 as my daily driver so I wouldn't have had to rent a truck.
January 21st, 2020 at 9:19 PM ^
You might fly, but a family with two or three kids would probably not.
Moving is not a thing people buy a car for unless they foresee themselves moving pretty frequently. Otherwise people would buy box trucks. Something like hauling a boat twice a year, is. I stated people buy a car for their "likely maximum" need, not all conceivable scenarios. If they need that truck twice a year, or maybe four times a year, or whatever, renting it is inconvenient and eats into the money you supposedly save at the gas pump.
Also, Elon is saying the 500-mile variant of the Cybertruck will be $70K, which means it will be pushing $80K at least.
January 21st, 2020 at 1:33 PM ^
My reservations...
I need something with 3 rows of seats that could go 200+ miles on charge, needs to be available used (I don't buy new cars), and needs to sell for a reasonable price.
January 21st, 2020 at 2:51 PM ^
I'm not anti-electric. Tesla annoys me for a raft of reasons I won't get into here; but I recognize that they have some damned cool cars (who doesn't want a crazy 0-60 time with AWD?)
The biggest thing for me is cost. The 'New' cars I buy are around $19-20K and a few years old. I live in Northern Michigan so I need something that can act economically as a decent trip car. Electrics don't fit that yet. Even with rebates and no gas/maintenance the cost of a new electric is way beyond what I'm willing to afford.
Now, If something came along that was considerably cheaper, I'd be on board for an around town car.
I'm bummed the Volt died.
January 21st, 2020 at 12:48 PM ^
I think converting to LNG instead of petroleum is far more likely than going to EV.
For one the current infrastructure can support LNG, and more importantly older vehicles can be easily retrofitted to run on LNG far cheaper than you can purchase a new EV.
January 21st, 2020 at 12:54 PM ^
Ugh. Their quality is better, but still has major issues. I hate that they get a pass on that.
January 21st, 2020 at 1:10 PM ^
Same. I just wrote a novel upthread saying what you said in 2 sentences.
January 21st, 2020 at 12:18 PM ^
Fun fact I learned today:
John DeLorean's (founder of the DeLorean car company) second wife was Kelly Harmon, daughter of our famous Michigan Heisman winner, Tom Harmon.
Great Scott!
January 21st, 2020 at 1:08 PM ^
Also, the Chrysler/Crisler confusion will fade into history (albeit in a manner that will be sad for many).
January 21st, 2020 at 12:31 PM ^
I'll be sad if the Chrysler brand goes away. I currently drive a Pacifica minivan and it's been a great vehicle. I used to have a Pacifica crossover which gave me about a dozen years of faithful service, my only regret is that I didn't wait a year and get the 4.0L instead of the 3.5L.
There isn't anything intrinsically wrong with the brand, it's entire a lack of clarity and imagination on the part of FCA leadership. Starving the brand of product, bringing all the brands under one dealership roof in most places, relatively little differentiation when products from different brands use the same platform.
Personally, if I were in charge, I'd put some money into a couple of projects:
1. It's mindboggling to me that they haven't brought a large CUV based on the Pacifica platform to market. It's a great platform and it would cost relatively little to re-skin. There is capacity to build it. You could also offer a hybrid version a la the Pacifica Hybrid. About the only downside is the lack of AWD, not sure what it would take to add that.
2. Develop a next gen platform for the 300 and develop an electric version.
That would give you up to 6 products instead of the current 3. Position the brand as the "family" brand, nice large vehicles at a reasonable price.
January 21st, 2020 at 12:56 PM ^
I think they gave up on the CUV Pacifica too early. They could use it now. It was almost out too early. Later things like the venza came and did well.
January 21st, 2020 at 12:32 PM ^
I'm rather indifferent to Chrysler. I thought the Crossfire was a cool looking little coupe, but the rest of their lineup is "meh".
But I feel your sadness when "your brand" shuts down. I felt the same way when Pontiac disbanded. Home of the GTO, TransAm, etc. For my money, Pontiac put out lots of fun cars at a relatively low price point. Even the newer GTO, Grand Prix and G8s were fun to drive.
January 21st, 2020 at 12:39 PM ^
GM killed Pontiac long before they got rid of the brand. Toward the end they were just rebadged Chevys.
January 21st, 2020 at 12:56 PM ^
The 400 trans am was an icon for me as a kid
January 21st, 2020 at 1:12 PM ^
GM sucks. I'm still pissed about what they did to Oldsmobile.
And Saturn.
January 21st, 2020 at 2:18 PM ^
Back in the 90's when I was young and Optimistic I thought John rock would take it places with his Aurora and that new design scheme.
January 21st, 2020 at 2:31 PM ^
I loved that car. I'd buy one today if I could.