OT: The Ravens want to use Lamar Jackson to revolutionize NFL offense
So our old buddy John Harbaugh plans to embrace Lamar Jackson as a runner and use the threat of his legs as an important component of the offense. The linked ESPN article provides some good quotes with details--lots of RPO, lots of plays where the check at the line prompts read options or passes, that sort of thing. The upshot? Lamar Jackson will run 150-200 times over the course of the season.
What do you think? I've gone back and forth on whether "running QBs" can truly have a different style of role and succeed than passing QBs. The current "running QBs" that have found success prove the rule: Russell Wilson is an excellent drop-back passer who can also run, and Cam Newton is a very good drop-back passer who can also run.
I love Lamar Jackson and I love the idea of the kind of offense they're describing. But I don't think it can work.
While I'm not big on harping on a QB's durability--a statue will take as many hits in the pocket as a scrambler will take out of the pocket--there is one key area where this is relevant. Drop-back QBs get hurt just like running QBs. But if they are slowed by a tweaked ankle or a cramping calf muscle, they can still drop back and throw, and the offense is built for them to do that.
If the John Harbaugh / Greg Roman / Lamar Jackson offense is dependent upon Jackson being a running threat on virtually every play, it can be very dangerous to defenses. But what happens when Jackson suffers an ankle sprain in the second quarter in week 10? He can still get out there and play, but if the entire offense is structured around his ability to run, and he ceases to be a threat to run, how can it function?
I am optimistic that Jackson can be a successful NFL QB. But I worry that he might get shortchanged in his development as a passer. He will succeed as a passer, or he will not succeed.
What say you?
RIP Lamar Jackson's kidneys, ribs and knees.
I'm not sure why QBs are considered so much more fragile than RBs. 150-200 carries isn't an enormous workload for a RB.
RBs dont touch the ball on every offensive snap .
Factor in the 150-200 carries along with a few hundred drop backs , hurries , hits and sacks .
You couldnt pay me enough to want to inflict that kind of damage to my body .
Its just not worth it to me .
Not to mention RIP to LJ's confidence and self-control. This strategy (which is not revolutionary by any means) is horribly detrimental to morale and really could implode most of the offense in event of an injury. People play only QB, RB, WR for a reason.
Exhibit A: Antonio Bass
I think the Ravens better get their backup QBs ready to roll because Lamar isn’t going to last much more than half the season. Last year was a novelty in the NFL with him running so much. The defensive coordinators have had all off season to consider how to stop him. I would wager he won’t be so successful this year.
Robert Griffin III and Trace McSorely are backups. Not sure if Griffin can still move around like he once did, but it looks like the Ravens stocked up on mobile QB units.
RG3 will at some point refuse to run around and demand all the plays will be conventional drop backs...plays he can't execute.
He made a mess of things while he was with the Redskins. To be fair, their front office and ownership are still a joke and that didn't help him.
Lamar Jackson is going to die if they actually try and do this
as long as they don't ask him to talk.
He just gave a pretty good interview today with Rich Eisen. He handled himself well. Also, I don't think him and Harbaugh are on the same page as he said he plans to run less and throw more this year. We'll see, but if I had a QB with his abilities I'd be running him as much as I could without wearing him out.
He wasn't a good decision maker in college and I just don't see him overcoming that. The Ravens better have a real good back up with a similar style. I thought the Chargers exposed him in the playoff game then backed off and allowed the Ravens to get back in the game.
What makes you think he wasn't a good decision maker in college?
I am not optimistic at all that Jackson can succeed, He is poor at throwing, and while I agree with Harbaugh's approach here, and it will work against many teams if the blocking is good, as soon as they play a defense that can shut down the run the Ravens are toast IMO.
This happens every 5 years or so in the NFL. New QB comes in with some running ability and a strong arm. Everyone's heads explode: "Wow, this quarterback can also RUN! The game has just changed forever!" Said QB then gets hurt or regresses as opposing defenses adjust and take advantage of the QB's mediocre passing/accuracy issues (which Lamar Jackson has in spades). QB slowly fades away, until the next dual threat gets drafted.
Rinse, repeat.
See Young, Vince as one example
Looking back, it's hard to believe he won Rookie of the Year in 2006. That's exactly why everyone should pump the brakes when a rookie QB has a big first year.
I'm not sure that a team has really committed to the running QB idea. The NFL is notoriously tied to the tried and true answer no matter how much data goes against it.The other QB on the 2006 Titans was Kerry Collins and the coach was Jeff "8-8" Fisher who can barely install a single offensive system. The Ravens, as someone else pointed out, have McSorely and RG3 as their backups which gives them the ability to truly structure an offense around the QB running.
I don't think there's anyone out that saying that all things being equal a running QB is better than a pocket passer type but another aspect is exploiting market inefficiencies. There are a ton of QBs coming out that are written off by the NFL and can be had very cheaply. Being able to use your draft capital on other positions and cycling through young QBs gives you a potential competitive advantage. Look at what teams are paying for mediocre guys and tell me there isn't a decent argument to try and buck the system.
It’ll only work if his passing game has improved (accuracy, reads, consistency...otherwise it’s open season) but he will face more than his fair share of injuries a la RGIII, Mike Vick, Randall Cunningham, Steve Young, etc...
Yes but it's not a competitive advantage if teams can stop a one dimensional offense--they will. The only way this works is if Jackson becomes an average NFL starter in throwing the ball. He's far from that.
Isn’t RG3’s career a reason not to run the qb?
I remember it being a big deal when Randall Cunningham played.
And before him, it was Michael Vick.
You have the order reversed. Cunningham was in the 80s and 90s, and Vick was in the 2000s.
And Vick was actually a pretty good pro QB all things considered. He was about 10-12 years ahead of his time.
Vick in today's offenses with spread, RPO, zone read, etc. would be a dynamite player. I doubt fans here remember it but he carries some bad Atlanta teams. He certainly would have needed to improve his accuracy a bit but it was doable.
Informative post with a proper embed -- it is possible!
I think they should use two running QBs at the same time. One as a QB who possibly run, and the other as a RB who can possibly pass!
I actually developed a theory about this a number of years ago. The premise is this: There are a lot of running QBs that come through college. They aren't elite passers on a Brady-Rodgers-P Manning level. But an offense that is designed around them, in my theory, could find under-utilized value, especially since securing a passing QB that is actually good enough to win the Super Bowl is so difficult. Why not give it a shot?
So you develop an offense that utilizes running QBs, including sets with two or even three QBs in the backfield at the same time. You can afford to have a guy who is a thunderback type (Tim Tebow, Cam Newton) whose major threat is straight ahead, but you'll need Lamar Jackson / Michael Vick types to threaten the edges or run pass routes.
And you stock your roster with four or five guys that can do this. When one of them goes down, you just insert another. They all know the plays and the concepts.
Ultimately, I think it won't work. Because the passing game is just too advanced for this to be effective. Even if a coach finds a way to successfully divide and shorthand defenses with advanced concepts and multi-QB looks (say, Cam Newton handing off on an end-around to Jackson, who can run or pull up and pass downfield or to Cam who is leaking outside in the opposite direction with a free blocker), the limited accuracy by most of the QBs will just hamstring them too much.
It would be interesting if a team had the guts to try. John Harbaugh is not trying this, but perhaps he should focus on assembling some more mobile QBs that can fill those roles.
Carrying 4-5 QBs alone sinks this idea. No NFL team would ever devote so much of their precious roster space for 3 or 4 backup QBs
Sure they would, assuming the "QB" can also play backup WR, RB, or special teams. Denard made the NFL and he was supposedly too injured to pass. Get a few of those guys and give them a chance pass every once in a while.
In my theory, they aren't backup QBs. With 2 or 3 QBs on the field at any given time, they are also taking the spot of RBs and perhaps a receiver. Lamar Jackson as a slot guy who throws 10 passes a game, that sort of thing.
Like I said, I don't think it will work. But it would be an interesting experiment.
I was sort of joking, but I think it's worth a try. You can either spend massive money on one out of a handful elite QBs and hope they don't get hurt or get a collection of relatively low cost, mostly interchangeable, athlete type QBs and run a bunch of them out on the field at once.
If you're a terrible team, it would at least bring some excitement for a season.
He will succumb to injuries about 5 games into the season if they run him that many times.
I actually think the NFL has evolved enough (in large part due to the influence of CFB) for this concept to work. i don't think Lamar Jackson is the one to make this work, but the way NFL coaches have figured out how to embed many spread concepts leads me to believe this could work. Harbaugh (Jim for clarification) obviously had some success doing this with Kap - and he had 92 rushing attempts the year they went to the super bowl and 100+ the year after, so 150-200 does not seem insane.
If Michael Vick was born about 20 years later and didn't have a thing for animal cruelty, he would be a perfect case study on whether a true spread / QB run-first (or equally) concept could work
They should have tried it with Vick when he got here. He got to Atlanta and his coach made a big deal about how he was going to conform him to the West Coast offense, back when the West Coast was still a thing people talked about but was actually well-solved by defenses and not interesting at all.
Vick, who in addition to his blazing speed had a Howitzer mounted on his arm, spending years of his career focusing on short timing patterns.
He did get Chip Kelly at the end of his career, but it turned out that Kelly was a paper tiger in the NFL.
Devin Bush plays him twice.
He ded.
I think it will be a failed experiment. Lamar is essentially a Tim Tebow with a little more potential. Baltimores defense might be able to carry them to a playoff win but they will never win anything meaningful with a QB who cant throw
I don't get the Tebow take. Jackson is an ELITE athlete
Tebow was a 4.7+ 40 guy = not that impressive even in college. Jackson was a sub 4.4 guy and one of the fastest players in his draft class, regardless of position.
Lose contain on Tebow and he's gonna rip off 20 or 30 on you. Lose contain on Jackson and he's taking it to the house
Rookie years rushing
Tebow: 43rushes, 227yards, 5.3ypc, 6TD, Longest run 40 yards
Jackson: 147rushes, 695yards, 4.7ypc, 5TD, longest run 39 yards
Lose contain on Lamar Jackson in the NFL and he MIGHT go the distance, but NFL starters are fast too and they take good angles and they tackle properly.
Everyone talked about how fast RG3 was and how defenses would have to game plan for his speed and it didn’t take long for defenses to game plan for his speed.
Denard made defenses look silly in college. He couldn’t even keep an NFL roster spot as a running back.
You missed this opportunity, I'll tweak your comment:
"Lamar is essentially Tim Tebow but fast."
Agree with the rest
Here we go again. Every year, there's an article about getting the QB involved in the run game for some team. Every year it falls apart.
Every DC out there saw this article and thought "ok, so my strategy just has to be to keep him in the pocket and dare him to pick us apart with his arm. I know how to do that."
Every team practices QB contain. Russell Wilson is good enough to make teams pay for this strategy. Cam Newton too (arguably).
Every team is loading up with linebackers who spent all of college figuring out how to stop mobile QBs and spread-to-run teams.
I give the Ravens until week 6 before this blows up in their face.
It's not really arguable with Cam Newton. He won the NFL MVP and made the Super Bowl. The guy is good.
Not coincidentally, he can pass.
Totally agree with your point about DCs.
Yeah the Redskins tried doing the same with RGIII and look how that turned out.
You can't run an NFL QB the way you do a college QB. Nothing is wrong with having the threat to take off and run. Its what makes guys like Russell Wilson or Cam Newton all the more dynamic. But aiming to make them run 150-200 times a season, against an NFL defense, is akin to career suicide for Lamar Jackson.
Interesting you mention Cam -- he's gone for more than 125 rushing attempts in 4/8 season and over 100 in all but 1.
And BTW - Jackson had 147 attempts last season! And he only started 7 games. Career suicide has begun early
I give the Ravens a pass for running their offense that way last year. The season was on the brink, Flacco was out, and Jackson was not ready to handle the drop-back playbook yet. The coaching staff had a good chance of getting axed if they missed the playoffs.
So they used what they had and ran him, hard.
We'll see what happens this year. But Jackson has to develop the ability to pass efficiently to succeed, and if the Ravens are just kind of dodging the issue, it won't work well.
I also mentioned Cam as an exception because he's a guy who is built to take the hits. 6'5, 245 lbs is a far cry from whatever Lamar Jackson weighs in at. Newton is still susceptible to injury on the run, but not to the degree that guys like Lamar Jackson or RGIII are.
If they actually plan to run Lamar Jackson that much, he won't last (as a starter) much beyond next season.
Cam Newton is also built like a tight end. A big tight end.
I don't understand this. So many people on here told me that running QBs are LESS likely to get hurt when I mentioned the risk of rushing Shea so much last season.
/Sarc
Lol he'll be out for the year by week 2.