OT - MGoProbate Lawyers and Board Advice
My Mother married husband after my Father passed.
My Mother divorces husband.
My Mother returns to husband but does not marry.
My Mother and husband purchase house in Florida.
Husband dies without a will (because he is evil) however the home was left to my Mother in an agreement from her lawyer so now all in her name.
Husband has a car that is paid off (est. $35K), Clothes, Gun collection, jewelry etc. all on her property.
Husband has children from first marriage that are alive but estranged from him by their choice.
Truthfinder did not pull a report on his children no clue of whereabouts, ages or names.
Any useful suggestions are appreciated.
Looking to hire a FL probate lawyer:
Q. What are my Mothers rights in regards to his belongings on her property?
Q. Is my Mother obligated to find his children? Can the costs be paid by his estate?
Q. Is there a timeline my Mother has to live in the house or can she move his property at the cost of the estate and sell the home? How long is my Mother obligated to stay in the house?
If you have not made a will (as well as a living will) FIND THE TIME ASAP. My Mother has created (against so many of us begging her otherwise) her mess I appreciate the boards help.
January 13th, 2023 at 4:48 PM ^
Not a lawyer, but it is my understanding that the homeowner is entitled to all of the belongings unless stipulated in a will/trust. Just my two cents.
January 13th, 2023 at 5:19 PM ^
The house is in her name? You need to park the car in the house.
January 13th, 2023 at 5:32 PM ^
That is not the case, certainly not in Florida.
January 13th, 2023 at 11:47 PM ^
On the house then?
January 14th, 2023 at 10:56 AM ^
I have not logged in to comment in a LONGGGGGG time. But, felt it necessary here. This is not legally correct nor is it sound advice. Please hire a probate attorney that is licensed to practice in florida. If you need recommendations feel free to reach out to me.
- source, while I am an idiot, my day job is doing my best to imitate that of a probate attorney.
January 13th, 2023 at 4:49 PM ^
Good luck man! Not an attorney but see this alot in my line of work. It can be an ugly, lengthy, costly process.
What general part of Florida are you in?
January 13th, 2023 at 4:59 PM ^
Gainsville
January 13th, 2023 at 5:05 PM ^
I'm several hours South of you and not familiar with any Gainesville law firms. I'm sure you'll find a good one up there.
January 13th, 2023 at 4:51 PM ^
Not a lawyer, but I'd just do whatever the hell ya want and ask for forgiveness later.
January 13th, 2023 at 4:58 PM ^
MJoe you made me smile I needed that.
He was a difficult man and did not reciprocate the love and care my Mother provided to him. None the less she is compelled to do the right thing. They have NOTHING in writing, sadly other then the house that is secure in my Mothers name.
January 13th, 2023 at 6:41 PM ^
I got you brother! for whatever that's worth. Shitty situation for sure. I hope it works out in the end. If not, I know a guy who is good at breaking legs and thing twisting arms off. He's cheaper than a lawyer. Cash only. Possession is 9/10ths of the law. It's 10/10ths of the law if the other guys know what's good for em.
January 13th, 2023 at 4:53 PM ^
I hang out with lawyers, and would assume that things titled in his name, such as a vehicle, could be handled differently, since they require a change of title to sell off, than things like a gun, clothes, jewelry. What would also matter is his intention. Did he ever stipulate to your mother that she would receive these things in the event of his evil demise? Was this ever captured in writing, even an email or something. If that was his intention, then she is probably clear to keep the things that don't have a formal title of ownership and are stored on property they occupied together. A car is probably more complicated. I'm also probably totally wrong, and Florida probably has a law that women aren't allowed to inherit and should be buried alongside their spouse/lover.
January 13th, 2023 at 5:02 PM ^
Hard telling not knowing.
Nothing in writing or email.
If on my Mothers property you would think is hers if not registered or titled but not so sure. She needs to sell this house ASAP. Tough situation.
January 13th, 2023 at 11:50 PM ^
This seems like good advice. Do you hang around any dentists?
January 13th, 2023 at 4:59 PM ^
The ONLY correct advice is "go consult a real lawyer".
January 13th, 2023 at 5:13 PM ^
The two Probate lawyers that have been consulted are asking for a deposit and then billable hours for work that does not have a beginning, middle or end. I fear they want to take advantage of an elderly woman.
I am trying to find someone that can provide legal advice in FL, perhaps not probate, to guide her.
Why would my Mother be obligated to find his estranged children to deal with his car and belongings on her property?
ugh
January 13th, 2023 at 5:29 PM ^
I'm not licensed in Florida, but typically someone who wants to administer an estate in the U.S. is going to have to try to find the deceased's heirs. Whether it makes sense for your mother to administer the estate is another question. I'm not sure.
It shouldn't take a lawyer many hours to tell your mother what her options are. Helping her carry out what she wants to do would be another matter, but this sounds like a fairly simple fact pattern for a FL probate attorney to analyze and opine on.
January 13th, 2023 at 5:55 PM ^
Isn't there an issue of creditors as well?
January 13th, 2023 at 6:36 PM ^
Yep.
I’m licensed in Michigan, not Florida. Here, I assume Florida as well, you need to put out a notice to creditors. You also need to list any heirs, estranged or not. Mother would be an interested party and should be able to open the estate if need be. Attorney needs to handle the process. Meet with several and take your pick.
Probate is essentially a process for disposing of assets that were not properly transferred while the decedent was alive (real property, accounts, stuff). A will tells you to whom/where assets should go, a trust, and assets properly titled to the trust, are disposed of via the trust/ee and can usually be done outside of the court system. Generally speaking, many people do not need trusts as assets can be set up in a way to transfer upon death.
Also, it’s good to have both a healthcare directive and financial power to attorney set up as well. They’re simple documents and should not cost much. Check with you healthcare provider for the medical directive and they may have a form you can fill out.
To the OP, get an attorney. Contact the local bar association and they should be able to provide you with names of competent counsel.
January 13th, 2023 at 6:37 PM ^
No shared debt although he might have some in credit cards in his name only.
January 13th, 2023 at 7:10 PM ^
That doesn’t seem unreasonable but it also shouldn’t take an experienced probate attorney a lot of time. No one makes a living giving away free legal advice over the phone. You should read whatever engagement letter they have her sign carefully and see what the scope of representation is. Basically, they should be able to tell you off the bat with minimal cost if any if she has something worth pursuing or if she’s out of luck and then a budget moving forward. Nothing you’ve described seems all that complicated.
January 13th, 2023 at 8:15 PM ^
asking for a deposit and then billable hours for work that does not have a beginning, middle or end
Client fees are the name of the game.
Unfortunately.
Hang in there.
January 13th, 2023 at 9:49 PM ^
I am a Michigan probate lawyer. What are you expecting from my brethren in Florida? That they quote you a small flat fee without looking into anything for you yet? Without knowing where the end is? Would you expect a caterer to quote you a flat fee without your giving them a guest headcount? Would you expect a mechanic to quote you a flat fee without checking out your car first? How about a painter without seeing your house? Your issue sounds like it's got "mess" written all over it. A deposit and hourly are absolutely appropriate. If a probate is necessary, the legal heirs are entitled to notification, no matter where or who they are or why they weren't around. Your mother made this bed for herself, and she's going to have to pay some professionals to be able to sleep in it.
January 13th, 2023 at 11:14 PM ^
The two Probate lawyers that have been consulted are asking for a deposit and then billable hours for work that does not have a beginning, middle or end.
Unfortunately, that's kind of how it works.
January 13th, 2023 at 11:54 PM ^
Why don't they ask for the house, car and assets and cut out the middle man? Easy Peasy.
January 13th, 2023 at 5:05 PM ^
All sympathies to your mother being left to sort out that mess.
That said, I'll admit I was reading your post half-wondering if it wasn't somehow a metaphor for college football coaching, recruiting, and/or NIL.
January 13th, 2023 at 5:05 PM ^
Might be a common law marriage, depending on duration of the living arrangements. Yes, hire a decent attorney to sort out this one. Pay him/her by the hour, not percentage of estate's value.
Revocable Trusts make estate settling about 1000% percent simpler to spouses, heirs, and assigns. Good luck, bring much patience with you, you will need it.
January 13th, 2023 at 5:20 PM ^
I wouldn't refer to him as husband as they weren't married at the time of his death. He's just a boyfriend at that point. If I recall correctly, Florida doesn't recognize common law marriage unless it's a common law marriage from another state.
(I don't practice in Florida, just something I recall hearing since Georgia abolished common law marriage some time ago.)
January 13th, 2023 at 7:55 PM ^
My parents had friends in Florida who had been a couple for 20+ years, not married but they lived together. The man was older and had grown children. When he started to decline cognitively, the children came and got him and kicked her out of the house that she had been living in for 20 years. It was in his name. She had no recourse and got nothing. The children put the father in a nursing home. Again, she had no recourse, and he was so compromised he couldn't speak for himself. I think they had him declared mentally incompetent. Word of caution to anyone out there in a similar situation. To the OP, at least the house is in your mother's name. I would definitely heed the advice here and find an attorney.
January 14th, 2023 at 3:28 AM ^
I know it's after the fact, but they should have made the family go through an eviction process. It's not that easy to evict someone, especially during the pandemic.
January 14th, 2023 at 1:39 PM ^
This was like 25 years ago, so I don't know what the laws were like back then, but they had an easy time of it. They took the father and put the house on the market, and that was it.
January 14th, 2023 at 3:19 PM ^
Even 25 years ago, it still could have been a headache to evict someone. If someone voluntarily leaves, then all bets are off after watching firsthand someone of the problems that people have had trying to evict people, I have never really wanted to be a landlord. Even with the house being put up for sale, she may have been able to drag things out for quite awhile.
January 13th, 2023 at 5:08 PM ^
I believe the Supreme Court ruled on a similar matter back in the 40's. The case was Finders Keepers v. Losers Weepers.
January 13th, 2023 at 5:54 PM ^
I used this prior ruling to defeat my brother when I found a quarter in the street fighter arcade machine while he was playing it in 1995. He’s always out there every election year picketing to overturn the ruling. What a sucker.
January 13th, 2023 at 8:47 PM ^
My older brother thought it was settled law until I beefed up at about 17.
January 13th, 2023 at 5:14 PM ^
Give me until tomorrow by noon. I'm checking into a Holiday Express, and I should have an answer by then.
January 13th, 2023 at 5:55 PM ^
I’ll give you until 11 am. You shouldn’t need late check out to solve this. After all, it is a Holiday Inn Express!
January 13th, 2023 at 6:41 PM ^
Figured I might need a Bloody Mary first.
January 13th, 2023 at 5:17 PM ^
"Husband dies without a will (because he is evil) however the home was left to my Mother in an agreement from her lawyer so now all in her name."
This needs a lot more clarification for helpful advice to be given. As you've worded it, I wouldn't be overly confident that the property actually belongs to her.
Get your documentation together and start consulting with probate lawyers.
January 13th, 2023 at 5:28 PM ^
FL Attorney here, but not probate.
Agree with the above, don't know what "Agreement from her lawyer" means. If your mother was not on title or didn't have a remainder interest, then the only way the home could be left to her would be via a will (which he apparently didn't have), and that would require a probate proceeding.
FL does not recognize common law marriage, which is what this likely falls under, if they were divorced. Accordingly, she would have no claim to his estate if he died intestate (without a will).
Given what you've stated, I'd find it unlikely that she has any legal claim to the home and more unlikely that she has any claim to his other assets.
Advice - hire a FL probate attorney. Use the Florida Bar website (www.floridabar.org) to find a probate attorney in the county where the property is located. Look for someone Board Certified.
EDIT: Re-read the facts. So your mom and husband purchased the property together. If she owns it now (from what her attorney is saying), they may have owned it with a right of survivorship, which would give her full ownership upon his death.
The above only relates to the home - not his assets/personal property.
January 13th, 2023 at 7:04 PM ^
Yes right of survivorship! His contents are the issue but nothing is "registered" besides the paid off car.
January 13th, 2023 at 5:34 PM ^
agree. she might be sol, if the house is not in her name or held jointly.
January 13th, 2023 at 6:40 PM ^
Appreciated- however the house (from her attorney) that drew up the house agreement we are confident is solid.
Agree on a lawyer - deposit - billable hours - to what end is the concern.
January 13th, 2023 at 6:56 PM ^
Good luck, but I have my doubts as to how the situation is being characterized. Brace yourself for potential bad news when you have your consults. I truly wish you and your mom the best though and hope things go smoothly for you both.
January 13th, 2023 at 5:25 PM ^
Not a probate lawyer, but a (retired) lawyer. This is going to depend on what Florida law provides for an estate of someone who dies intestate. (State laws can differ greatly in probate matters.). I would guess someone needs to apply to probate court down there to administer the estate. Seems as if your mother would have the best ground for seeking to do that if his kids are not around. Of course, she doesn’t have to do so if she doesn’t want to. Where in Florida is your mom located? Perhaps someone on here can recommend a competent local lawyer in the area, who might know a probate lawyer if he isn’t one himself. Your mom had a lawyer for the house— can’t he recommend a probate lawyer?
January 13th, 2023 at 6:44 PM ^
Gainseville FL
Her Real Estate Attorney did not have a recommendation.
January 13th, 2023 at 8:02 PM ^
Well, you could just research probate help in Gainesville, which you misspelled twice, btw, in this thread. For example, I looked it up and found a pretty decent summary of the probate process in Florida.
When a person dies, their estate goes through a court process of probate which seeks to determine who is legally entitled and should be transferred assets attached to the estate. Probate begins and ends with a valid will and the process will vary depending on its application whether the decedent's estate will go through, formal, summary or abbreviated personal property distribution. It also is dictated by the total value of the estate.
The court assigns a personal representative to handle the details of the distribution.
If you don't have a will, the court will divide property ownership based on Florida probate laws.
Property in a Revocable Trust, real estate owned under Joint Tenants with Rights of Survivorship (which the real estate guy ought to know about), life insurance policies and retirement accounts with a designated beneficiary, bank accounts with payable on death or transfer on death designations, "lady bird" deeds or enhanced life estates, aren't subject to probate.
Hope you get all the answers your mother needs to settle her affairs in her favor.
January 13th, 2023 at 5:26 PM ^
You might be able to find free legal advice for her somewhere on this site: https://help.flcourts.gov/Legal-Services-Resources
January 13th, 2023 at 5:29 PM ^
Condolences to your mom for her loss.
Not a lawyer, but the simplest answer might be to pretend he is still alive. Dress him up, put sunglasses on and maybe tie him to dolly for mobility. Take him to parties, to the bank to withdraw money from his account and cash social security checks, etc. I think she could fool his kids if they ever come sniffing around since it sounds like they haven't seen him for while.
January 13th, 2023 at 5:34 PM ^
This could work...