OT: LZ Granderson: Verlander Cy Young and MVP?
Article by LZ Granderson on ESPN.com argues Verlander should get the Cy Young and MVP. Isn't this a bit of a stretch to give a pitcher the MVP also? I do agree with him though that there's no way the Tigers have the record they do without ...
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/commentary/story/_/id/6878266/justin-verlander-deserves-cy-young-mvp
August 20th, 2011 at 5:03 PM ^
Yeah but check the records bro. One if those two has been on the way up the other spiraling down in flames. Ones teams in first place too, the other is on a team six games out. Bro.
August 20th, 2011 at 5:17 PM ^
I am not understanding your point. Not even sure you meant to respond to me.
August 20th, 2011 at 5:21 PM ^
I dont really understand what he said either, but Verlander leads in almost every other important category including Batting Avg. Against and WHIP last I checked as well as overall record, obviously.
August 20th, 2011 at 8:53 PM ^
One also has a MUCH better lineup hitting for him, too. Both their ERAs have gone up in August. If Weaver had the Ks he had last year, he would certainly be in discussion for Cy Young, like Hernandez last year (who was the most dominant pitcher, but having the MLBs worst offense supporting you makes Ws/Ls suffer).
August 20th, 2011 at 5:35 PM ^
Case closed, obviously Weaver is better than Verlander.
August 20th, 2011 at 6:05 PM ^
my argument before about why ERA is such a poor gauge of pitchers. It's not solely controlled by them. And there is a lot of noise involved in ERA. Meaning, it has the ability to variate wildly even when there have been a lot of innings pitched. Let's examine Weaver vs Verlander further.
K%: Verlander 26.2%, Weaver 21.6%
BB%: JV 5.4%, JW 5.8%
FIP: JV 2.68, JW 2.84
xFIP: JV 2.97, JW 3.62
tERA: JV 2.79, JW 2.78
Siera: JV 2.75, JW 3.44
Innings pitched: JV 202.2, JW 188.1
So in pitcher controlled metrics, the only one where Weaver comes out ahead is tERA, and that's by .01 runs. The reason Weaver has a better ERA probably has something to do with the team he plays for (the Angels are better at defense than the Tigers are, something that is not Verlanders fault)
August 20th, 2011 at 6:07 PM ^
in basically every other relevant pitching metric, including K rate, walk rate, innings pitched, FIP, xFIP, SIERA, and all the Fangraphs "minus" stats.
August 20th, 2011 at 5:03 PM ^
If Verlander reaches 23 wins and keeps his ERA at 2.3 he should win both the Cy Young and the AL MVP. His numbers after a Tigers loss are amazing and he means more to the Tigers than any other player in the AL does to their team.
August 20th, 2011 at 5:32 PM ^
I disregard everything LZ Granderson has to say after that moronic OSU-Michigan article he wrote a couple months ago. I think Verlander should be in the discussion, however, but it'll probably go to Granderson(Curtis)
August 20th, 2011 at 5:55 PM ^
I disregarded him long before that (thus not even reading the piece you're referencing). He's by far the worst writer at ESPN and it's not even close.
I think they hired him thinking he would provide unique insights into being a gay man in the sports world (even if it's just as a writer), but that has not come to fruition at all. He just provides terrible takes on everything.
August 20th, 2011 at 6:00 PM ^
JV should win MVP but ESPN chose Adrian Gonzalez in May because he's a Red Sox.
August 20th, 2011 at 6:01 PM ^
then why not give a starting pitcher the MVP. They usually are the most valuable players on a team anyways.
August 20th, 2011 at 6:34 PM ^
In 1999, Pedro Martinez went 23-4, 2.07 ERA, 313 SO, .923 WHIP. The next best AL ERA was David Cone's 3.44.
Pedro finished second in the voting that year to Pudge Rodriguez because multiple writers left him off the ballot completely.
Contrast that to this year where Sabathia and Weaver are putting up similar numbers, and Ellsbury, Gonzalez, and Granderson are having phenomenal years, and it's not gonna happen.
August 20th, 2011 at 6:38 PM ^
a season where the pitcher actually SHOULD have won the MVP. Also Pudge was not the best positional player in 1999. Manny was.
August 20th, 2011 at 9:24 PM ^
Agreed. It would be nice, but this LZ guy is a total Detroit homer. He even admits it. Willie Hernandez was a miracle.
August 20th, 2011 at 7:00 PM ^
he won't win only because his team is 13 games under .500....remember Cabrera last year??? he didn't beat out hamilton because the tiges didn't make the playoffs and hamilton missed a bunch of games!!!! i'm not a big fan of how that works
August 20th, 2011 at 7:03 PM ^
also still had over 1 game of WAR value higher than the next best player. That's DESPITE that he missed 29 games overall last year. Nobody in the AL was close to Hamilton in run creation last year AND he was good at defense too. He was the MVP, and he deserved to be the MVP regardless of if his team was good or not.
August 20th, 2011 at 7:01 PM ^
verlander is the shit!!!! go tiges!!! Cy young and MVP!!!!
August 20th, 2011 at 9:14 PM ^
Verlander could get the triple crown this year if he improves his era and I'm surprised people aren't talking about this given how close he is to it right now.
August 20th, 2011 at 10:32 PM ^
It really is very tough for someone who plays 30-35 games to win the MVP. Even as good as JV has been, history is against him.
The last time a starting pitcher won it was 86 when Clemens went 24-4 with a 2.48 ERA, 10 CG, and 238 K. He also lead the Red Sox to the most wins in the AL and eventually the World Series, which the Sox would have won had Billy Buckner not wet the bed.
If you look at JV's projected stats, however, he's also on pace for 24 wins, and a lower ERA by .17, a lower WHIP, and almost 30 more strikeouts. You could argue he's on pace for a more dominant season.
Also, look at Clemen's supporting cast that year. Jim Rice was 3rd in the MVP voting that season. Wade Boggs lead the league in hitting and had a crazy .453 OBP to finish 7th in the MVP vote. Don Baylor hit 31 HR (in a year when the league leader had 40) to finish 13th in the voting, and freaking Marty Barrett even got some MVP love, finishing 17th in the voting.
Yes, JV has support from some guys whop could get votes - Cabrera, Martinez, probably even Peralta - but you could certainly argue that Clemens had a stronger supporting cast.
It will be tough, but if Verlander can pitch a great final 8 games and get gthe Tigers in the playoffs, he'll make it hard on the voters. It would be the best season a SP has had since 2002, when Randy Johnson went 24-5 with a 2.32 ERA and a crazy 334 K. Even in that season, the Big Unit had to settle for 7th in NL MVP voting. Some guy named Barry Bonds won it that year hitting .370 with 49 HR.
August 21st, 2011 at 1:43 AM ^
You can't pin that Series loss all on Buckner. The score was tied when he missed that ground ball.
August 21st, 2011 at 1:49 AM ^
you know, all the other games they played in that series that his error had no affect on.
August 21st, 2011 at 12:01 PM ^
"Comfortably ahead in ERA" isn't exactly true. Even at this point in the season, Weaver goes out and tosses a 6 2/3 with 5 ER, Verlander tosses a 8 / 1 ER and he's trailing in the ERA conversation. While I don't expect Weaver to, as I think he's only had one game since May giving up more than 4 ER, the miniscule numbers they are both throwing up there and the small sample size mean it just isn't a comfortable lead.