OT: The Klinsmann Experiment
Had high hopes for Klinsmann, but US men's soccer is clearly at a low point; I don't think the lack of gifted ("technical") players helps. Has he gambled on a style of football we couldn't manage and simply lost? Might the gamble pay off soon? (That is, are better players on the way?)
It's curious to me that the criticism from all quarters is so muted--no one really calling for Klinsmann's head, just saying we've got to win. Maybe this amounts to a tacit collective admission that the talent just isn't there, yet?
MOD EDIT - Moved to board - LSA
I blame MLS and its horrible development of American players who are just 1 trick ponies with no soccer brain on the pitch.
March 29th, 2016 at 10:24 AM ^
Agreed, but the development problems start long before anyone gets to MLS.
I think one of the problems with soccer in the US is the free substitution rules at lower levels. The high school and youth soccer I see here is manic compared to what I remember in Europe. Lots of high pressure, maximum workrate all the time, everybody running their legs off because they know they're going to get subbed off before they tire. If you know you're going to be out there for the whole 90 you, and your coaches, are forced to think of a different way to play. And I think that different way to play might better develop tactical sensibilities. Technique too, maybe.
I will say, it is at a low point now. Other than a few friendlies (Germany's B Team, weakened Netherlands) they have looked awful since the World Cup two years ago.
Tomorrow's match is a big one for JK. Anything other than a resounding win will just make things worse. Copa could be a complete embarrassment this summer if things don't turn around soon.
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March 28th, 2016 at 11:52 PM ^
Didn't the US already at least waltz through the dregs of CONCACAF? They hadn't lost to Guatemala since the 80's. It doesn't just look like a lack of progression under Klinsmann. It looks like an historic regression.
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If anything we have regressed. There is no system... It has been so long but I think we were more attacking under Bradley. I remeber Klinsman talking shit about bradley saying we need to play attacking attractive football.
Even though we got "far" in the WC it was a joke we were out played in each of those games. We were lucky to beat Ghana.
I don't know what Klinsman means by this but we have no identity. This is not attacking attractive football. I dont see possession. I don't even see direct counter attacking. I dont see pressing.
I've seen this arguement in many places for about a year. I think if we lose or even play the same shit soccer weve been playing the next game he should be out.
March 28th, 2016 at 10:23 PM ^
I dislike Klinsmann and think he's a terrible manager, but to be fair the U.S. played very well against Portugal and should have won that game. Granted we were lucky that Ghana imploded, but against a top level opponent its hard to say the U.S. has ever looked better.
To beat Ghana? Brooks nailed in a great header off a good set corner set piece. They led basically the entire game.
Quite honestly, if Wondolowski smacks in a wide open net to beat Belgium, none of this conversation would be happening
Ghana controlled play most of the match. We got a very quick goal and a very late one, but the 80 or so minutes in between were not pretty.
I've watched that game multiple times, it wasn't like the Belgium game where Howard had to save a million shots. Ghana was shooting a ton but only one more hit the target than the USA.
USA has never been a high-possession team. They always play defense and wait for their moments.
March 29th, 2016 at 10:51 AM ^
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I respect the ideology Klinsman tried to bring in. He did a nice job recruiting, his ideas for revamping the youth system are correct. But he's an absolutely awful game day coach and tactician. The continuous irrational lineup shuffling is infuriating.
Passing out from the back, ball control, attacking style were all admirable ideas. The issue is, we don't have the talent to play that style. We literally don't have even close to ONE world class midfielder or striker. We've got a handful of bottom table BPL defenders, a couple of Bundesliga players, and a whole bunch of MLS lifers or guys that couldn't hack it in Europe.
The US has had its most success playing counter attacking soccer, with a strong back line and great keeper, while scoring off timely set pieces. We also always played our ass off, always had a chip, and defeneded till the death. Klinsmans teams have been just lifeless and pathetic recently.
I am genuinely concerned we will not qualify for the World Cup which could set US soccer back and damage the momentum that has been building. It's time for a change but if we somehow lose tomorrow it might be too late to even matter.
Unfortunately, your last sentence rings very true. Losing tomorrow is maybe the only way Klinsmann gets the axe, but if we don't qualify for the next World Cup it doesn't matter anyway; the damage will already be done.
It's a tough spot to be in.
March 29th, 2016 at 10:00 AM ^
That would be one of the more painful sporting outcomes in my life. I'm such a huge soccer fan, especially USA. Waiting 4 years to see your team is beyond painful. Having to wait ANOTHER 4. No words lol.
I'll have what he's having!
March 28th, 2016 at 10:54 PM ^
LOL. Like we'll be able to vote at all after the future upgrade.
March 29th, 2016 at 10:22 AM ^
Drupal50
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People have been saying this since the world cup in 1994. American youth are not near as devoted to soccer as other countries and they never will be. Too many other distractions.
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Holland has had a mediocre league since the post-Bosman exodus of the mid-90s. Belgium's league has been mediocre since forever. France league has generally been underwhelming, certainly in relation to its national team. It hasn't really hurt any of those teams much. A strong domestic league isn't a requirement for national team success.
March 28th, 2016 at 10:35 PM ^
The success/strength of MLS does not directly correlate to national team success or failure. A majority of the best talent in Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Belgium, Holland, Mexico, (any African country), do not play in their own domestic leagues.
The best American players will play overseas, while MLS is a place to get a very young start, and return home when older. The big issue is we haven't had enough talented players that are good enough to play in the worlds top leagues.
March 28th, 2016 at 10:49 PM ^
... all seem to gravitate back towards MLS, and now seemingly in their primes. See Michael Bradley, Jozy Altidore, and (though he may have been just past his prime) Clint Dempsey.
With the league becoming richer, how long will it be before MLS attracts the likes of Zelalem, Green, et al before they have fully developed in Europe? Before we know it, the success of MLS may start becoming a hinderance to the development of the national team. See Premier League and pre-2000 Bundesliga
March 28th, 2016 at 11:01 PM ^
I hear you, but you kind of eluded to it I question if those guys were really even good enough to play at that level anymore. Dempsey was/is old, Bradley was fading at Roma, Altidore couldn't bag a goal for Hull.
I think those moves were more so fading stars coming back. I believe the young talent still aspires to play in Europe, the money and fame still resides in those leagues. I think they graviitate back here because their popularity here still earns them a nice payday and they get to be on home soil.
I could see the hinderance, honestly our most talented youth is probably best served going over to European academies but that's a lot to ask for an American family to send their kid overseas at 8-12 with no guarantee they make it. We really have a long way to go in developing our domestic youth system.
March 28th, 2016 at 10:49 PM ^
... all seem to gravitate back towards MLS, and now seemingly in their primes. See Michael Bradley, Jozy Altidore, and (though he may have been just past his prime) Clint Dempsey.
With the league becoming richer, how long will it be before MLS attracts the likes of Zelalem, Green, et al before they have fully developed in Europe? Before we know it, the success of MLS may start becoming a hinderance to the development of the national team. See Premier League and pre-2000 Bundesliga
March 28th, 2016 at 10:40 PM ^
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March 28th, 2016 at 10:53 PM ^
There are more American teenagers playing professionally in Germany than Dutch teenagers.
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March 29th, 2016 at 11:46 AM ^
With more of our top level athletes playing the game past AYSO there is going to be a surge in talent in 5-10 years.
This isn't the issue. It's not that the U.S. team lacks athletic ability. The issue is that we don't have great skill.
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March 29th, 2016 at 11:47 AM ^
If he were to come up under the current U.S. system, he'd probably be a so-so player. Coaching is far more of an issue than raw talent.
...the LeBron-/Mike Trout-/Julio Jones-caliber athletes of this country start playing soccer past age 5, we're not winning anything more prestigious than a Gold Cup.
There are only four World Cups in that timeframe. Winning one isn't just a matter of having the talent; you need good fortune and strong team chemistry. Even if we can build up our roster enough to compete with the big boys, the odds are strongly against us.
Well its not like the top talent has really gotten any better.
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Yep. When the U.S. loses to Guatemala, it's crazy to say it's because Guatemala has a better talent pool.
I dont think he is a very good coach, or at least nothing he has done tells me that he is. He constantly plays guys out of their normal position, changes the lineup regardless of success, and shuns talented guys out of spite (Donovan, Feilhaber, etc.) while playing guys he loves for unknown reasons (Timmy Chandler, Brek Shea, etc.).
i dont mind trying new things but it has to be a controlled experiement. He changes 6 or 7 things every game so there is no way to know what works.
His reputation exceeds his ability to the point that his name should be Jurgen Kiffen.
I dont think he respects the US team or what they can accomplish. As a German, and someone who won the world cup as a player, he looks at the world cup from the perspective of if you dont win it you have had a bad world cup. There are 5 or 6 countries that look at it that way but the US is not one of them. Making quarters or semis would be huge for the US but to Jurgen that is crap.
The only other tournament that would mean anything to him would be the Euros which we obviously can't win either. He looks at the Gold Cup as a joke - before he became involved in US SOccer I imagine he had never even heard of it. Maybe the Copa America will catch his attention, who knows?
So he keeps throwing random shit at the wall but doesn't even bother to look and see what is sticking and what isn't because at the end of the day he has everything he wants - millions of dollars, living in LA, and flying home to celebrate Germany winning the world cup
This is an excellent analysis. His lack of respect for US soccer is maddening.