OT: Electric Vehicles

There are several things in your post that represent outdated thoughts.  To wit:

• One video segment I watched suggests that the energy and raw material it takes to build an all electric vehicle wipes out much of the gain in reducing emissions.

This is not true, and I don't think it ever has been.  The only difference between an ICE vehicle and an EV is the engine/battery.  The rest is the same metals and plastics.  Making a battery doesn't take any more raw material than making an ICE and its fuel.  

• Another suggest that the cost of replacement batteries is so high that it will create problems 8 years after purchase, with a high cost to replace batteries not holding a charge any more.

This hasn't been true for a decade.  Sure, 15 years ago, the first hybrids had big issues as the batteries got older.  But battery technology has improved greatly - tremendous strides - in the last 10 years, and it continues to get even better.  

• And I also am given to understand that the recycling of batteries is a difficult process, and what to do with old batteries will be a difficult problem.

Same answer as above - you'll sell the car before replacing batteries or having to think about recycling them.  But those processes will come with improved technology, also.  Tell me - how does one recycle ICE emissions?

• Lastly, there is also a question about what to do when the energy grid goes down. What happens if you live in an area where tornados have decimated communities? How do you charge your car when there all the charging stations are wiped out?

LOL!  What do you do when all the gas stations are wiped out?  You operate on your full tank for a few days until infrastructure gets back up and running.

If I'm not mistaken the raw materials for those batteries are harvested by slaves in 3rd world countries and the profits are likely used to finance... bad things

There is also this issue of EV buyers going back to ICE due to charging issues

https://www.businessinsider.com/electric-car-owners-switching-gas-charging-a-hassle-study-2021-4

Does anyone, besides the OP, think that ICE vehicles can refill during a power outage? The pumps run on electricity. I've never fallen for that argument 

I work in the industry (chargers). Battery wear out is pretty overblown. There's people on 300k miles with no noticeable difference in range. Recycling isn't so prevalent as much as reusing. The used packs mostly go toward energy storage for other applications (like solar). As far as net environmental benefit, it depends on where your energy comes from. At the end of the day, it's a fledgling technology that will get better with widespread adoption. Absolutely no one in the auto industry believes ICEs are the way forward. 

Ford F-450 Limited is the only way to go!

I own an EV and I follow the issue closely. I see a lot of concern with calculating the full lifecycle cost of an EV but I'm not seeing similar attempts to calculate the real lifecycle costs of ICE vehicles and the externalities associated with fossil fuels. 

Using an online EV cost calculator, one that even factored in what time of day I'm most likely to charge, it indicated that my Ford Mach-e has an impact equivalent to 88mpg. Also, lots of evidence coming online that @ 8 years there's significant life left in a properly maintained battery.  

We couldn't commit to all-electric, but got lucky last year when searching for a bigger car and landed a Volvo XC-90 Recharge that is a good combo solution for the present-day.

It only gets about 20 miles in pure electric mode, but can be used in hybrid mode and gets good gas mileage for a bigger car even when you're not on the battery. The cold definitely has an effect, and it does kick on the gas engine once the temps get down below maybe 15.

Live in Chicago and our commute isn't much since we live and work in the city, so we've actually only filled the gas tank 2-3 times since we got it in August & haven't noticed a meaningful increase in electric bills with nightly charging.

Like all cars, it'll probably be dated in 5 years, definitely 10, but we are really happy with the decision in the meantime since we need the flexibility for road trips & like day-to-day electric as an option.

Disclamers: one of the things I do is supply specialty machinery/parts to electricity producers for the world's fossil based power grid. I am, therefore, financially biased towards IC power production, i.e., I derive income from fossil fuel use. My junior partner is a former employee in and current expert in the power equipment business. He is brilliant and a strong enabler of our engineering and business success. 

Furthermore: I am acutely aware that my commercial customer base is being forced to shrink which, honestly, is the right thing to have happen for my offspring's future on this planet. 

Lastly: I am a strong lobbyist for a *well planned* shift away from fossil power. Failing to plan well and rationally - kills people. See the recent debacle with the Texas power grid freeze. 

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EVs *are* relatively expensive to buy, fun to drive, an expensive pain in the a$$ for which to prepare, and limited in their overall usefulness --- but the "tax math" to purchase a pair of EVs can be financially compelling: Uncle Sam kinda gave me a BOGO free deal. See far below. 

If you work from home or close to home and/or are a low overall mileage driver, they fill a purpose very conveniently. Keep an ICE car (or two) available for road trips, etc. Yes, the econimics of doing that are kind of absurd.

You will need 240 volt circuits in your garage(s), which may require upgrades to your main and/or aux panels. Materials are more than a few bucks and electricians don't work for free, if you can retain them. You will also need to find, purchase and wait to have delivered (supply shortages, of course) wall mounted (probably) charging stations, aka EVSEs.

You will get up to a thousand dollar tax credit (not write off, a credit) for this "home infrastructure". There is also a $7500 tax credit, per EV purchased, model ddepenent. Note, this means that buying 2 EVs and installling EVSEs provides you with a $16K tax credit, which shields $45K +/- in pretax income if you are in the top tax bracket. Ergo, that second EV is, if it is a low end, short range model, shielded in its entire cost in pretax income. Yes, absolutely, it is genuinely a rich man's transportation mode. NB, I didn`t write the regs, I just used them to my advantage. I am sure this situation will chafe some people on this board. I will just type to them, in advance, that we should simply "agree to disagree", again. :-)

My EV range is fairly limited, especially in cold weather. EVs are still somewhat primitive in design, hugely fun to drive and very convenient to "refill" at home once your daily tasks are completed. They are not luxurious. I have no idea how I will feel several years down the road as the batteries fade somewhat.

I have yet to use a fast DC charging outside my home. Again, I kept my ICE vehicles for long range road trips plus old man grins.

Ponder your lifestyle and your needs, plan/sweat every damn detail, run your numbers. Repeat these processes, this time using others to find what you've missed. Execute. Prepare to giggle like a kid when your car hums like a kiddee car rolling down your driveway. Prepare for some people to flip you off, others to give you thumbs up. There is very little middle ground.

Enjoy.

Bought a Model 3 around years ago. Have a charger in my garage. I’ve used another charger 3 times. Once just to see how it worked. I’ve only rotated the tires and added washer fluid. I hate driving my wife’s ICE car and will never go back. The instant acceleration and one pedal driving are not something I hope to do without in any future car. Unless you are a road warrior, you are fine. There are chargers everywhere. I went to the UM/Nebraska game from KC. Was planning on using the Lincoln supercharger Sunday morning after the game for the trip back and was pleasantly surprised to see a charger in my hotel lot. Plugged in when we arrived and it was full by the time the game was over for like $6. I moved it to give someone else the spot and we left for home in the morning first thing.  

It's likely the net benefit of EV, environmentally is still worthwhile, although not as great as people think.   There's still operating costs (financial and environmental) in creating the vehicles of course.  Demand for lithium for batteries is surging and that requires new mining operations ,etc. and so on.

Of course if you drive in an area powered by coal or a nat gas powerplant it's questionable if your EV is helping or hurting.

But IMO the real reason car manufacturers are pushing EV isn't the environment, they want electric  controlled cars so they can move to a subscription based model of car "ownership" so you'll be continually paying them for software updates, etc.   See  Toyota did this:

https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/12/22831105/toyota-subscription-remote…

You'll need to have the latest software - for safety, of course.  Also once cars become fully automated you'll still find yourself paying car insurance (never mind you're not actually driving the car).

But then again I'm 100% convinced we're heading into a technocratic dystopian nightmare, so take my concerns with a grain of salt.

I'm still holding out hope for the hydrogen fuel cell car. I think this would be the most environmentally friendly technology. 

Am an engineer, and work on my own cars, and I abhor the thought of the gasoline engine going away. Yet, I reserved a Fisker Ocean. It will be our second car, for local trips. If you want to reserve one, here is the referral code 8RF66I.   that is the letter i, not the number one.  Costs $250 to reserve but you can change mind and get refunded all but a $25 admin fee.  Might even be able to sell the reservation at some point, as a buddy sold his Bronco reservation for 10K.

There are a lot of comments in this thread along the lines of "a friend has a Tesla" or "someone told me..."  Well, I am a Tesla owner - my second one.  I have 4 friends who own a Tesla.  Here are the facts:

1. It is the best car I have ever owned, period.  Other than my iphone, it may be the best quality thing I've ever owned.  I had my first one for 3 years - only one visit to the shop for a minor issue.  My second is going 4 years old - NEVER been in the shop. 

2. My friends LOVE their Teslas.  None of us will ever own a gasoline-powered car again.

3. While it's true that it takes energy and raw materials to build one, the same is true of a internal combustion car. If you power your car with solar, the costs, both in money and environment, are FAR lower. Further, gas-powered cars do not reflect the additional costs to society to the environment, but we all pay for it.

4. The current system is unsustainable, and we will eventually run out of oil.  HINT:  we're using it far faster than Mother Earth is making it.

5. While it is true that it's more difficult to drive long distances, that will change as technology advances.

6. There are a lot of great things about electric cars that don't include the environment.  One is that I don't need to stop at a gas station.  Sure, it's only 5 minutes once or twice a week, but I don't need to do it.  Another is that you never need an oil change, tune-up, or radiator fluid. Never.  And, perhaps best of all, they're so quiet. You don't realize how much noise an engine makes until you don't have it.

It's still early days, but electric cars are the future.  And maybe Tesla has some QA issues as they've gone from making 50,000 a year to making a million, but they'll get it sorted.  If they don't, so what?  Ford, GM, Audi, BMW, VW, Mercedes, etc... they know how to make cars, and they're going electric, too.  If you don't get one, you're missing out.