OT: College application season

Submitted by phill on September 19th, 2022 at 5:55 PM

Hey guys,

I am a long time Michigan sports fan, lived in Michigan until 12 years ago and have hardly missed a Michigan football game in the last 20 odd years. Did take some classes in Umich Dearborn but not an alumni. Graduated from a smaller school.

With the college application season (and football season) upon us, I have a question for many of you attended school at Ann Arbor. I have a senior in high school who is a Michigan fan. Hasn't missed a football game since 5th grade and during the fall, our Saturdays are usually taken by Michigan Football. He is a super high stat kid (just a sample here, 36 ACT, Perfect GPA, many AP classes with 5s in a lot of them, Honor is national level extra circulars etc). Interested in pre-med.

Now obviously, he will pick the school he wants to attend and has many ivy league schools in his sights. But Michigan is one he is extremely attracted to. Knowing UM, I wouldn't mind too much if he ended up there either, but do want him to apply and see the field. He is big Michigan fan, and he has eliminated schools like OSU for obvious reasons. He will not apply to OSU or MSU come what may even if they give him free 4 yr scholarship. He's made that clear. I also think he is way above theirr league. I did not mention all the stats above.

So here's the question. I know many of you on this board went to UM. Any advice for a kid like this? He is writing his essays right now and any tips will be appreciated. What should he be careful of? Any perspectives on your applying to college and picking UM will also be useful. 

Thank you!!

 

 

BoFan

September 20th, 2022 at 12:44 AM ^

You can get a essay coach or he can figure it out himself.  It’s best to have a personal story that stands out from the standard bs. 
 

I went to Michigan and love Michigan.  If he can get into a top IVY, Stanford, or similar with a huge endowment, the cost can be less after aid than Michigan in-state. (I went to Stanford for grad school) In that case it’s probably worth the elite school for the experience and med school entry. 

rym

September 20th, 2022 at 3:14 AM ^

Consider the University of Chicago. Best decision I ever made (twice, once for undergrad and once for law school). I think if you can get into Chicago, Harvard, Yale, or Stanford, you should go.

Northwestern is a good choice as well if you’re looking for options in the midwest beyond the U of M. And consider looking further afield — Berkeley, UCLA, and Virginia are the other top-of-market public schools alongside Michigan.

Amazinblu

September 20th, 2022 at 10:42 AM ^

rym, U-Chicago is an exceptional school - congrats on your degrees.   U-Chicago, IMO, is also a very rigorous academic environment - with a strong focus on academics / research.   And, less focus on social / athletics areas.  

I agree with your perspectives of the universities you mentioned.   However, my view is - a student needs to be "incredibly unique" - to be admitted to either UCLA or Berkeley as an out of state student.   California will not take SAT / ACT scores into consideration.  So, distinguishing yourself in a very large pool of applicants will be very challenging.

I don't know how the number of applicants has changed in the last two years; however, the number of applicants who applied to "selective / highly selective" universities has gone up significantly during Covid.   The "optional" view of test scores - in my opinion - has contributed to that increase.

Amazinblu

September 20th, 2022 at 12:13 PM ^

Phil, U-Chicago has a "one day" program - usually on a Friday - where they not only provide an overview of the university - but also, have sample classes in a variety of academic areas.   

If U-C is still on your son's radar - and, of interest - then, definitely consider that.

jmblue

September 21st, 2022 at 7:11 AM ^

I'm biased, but if you can get into Michigan as an in-state student, I don't see why you'd bother with out-of-state public schools.  Your educational experience won't be too different but you'll be paying a lot more for the privilege.  For a small private school, I could see it.

I considered some out-of-state schools but in the end was very happy to have stayed in state.  I didn't think of the cost at the time, but I certainly do now.  

GPCharles

September 20th, 2022 at 8:41 AM ^

FWIW - 

H & W M grads here. M is a BIG school.  If you need assistance, you have to go and seek it out.  If not, you will flounder on your own.

I have had three college students with wildly disparate college experiences.  Oldest - a Michigan directional school, Middle - an Ivy, Youngest - a US military academy.  Michigan directional school - you are on your own.  S was on the 7 year undergraduate plan (grind teeth) but ended up with a PhD.  Ivy, they keep an eye on you but you must graduate in four years, without some sort of dispensation, i.e. semester abroad, severe personal issues, etc.  Academy - they watch you almost every second, you must graduate in four years.  All three are out and doing well.

Make sure your student picks an academic experience that fits their academic and social interactive makeup.  Some students have a hard time interacting with faculty and TAs/TFs, particularly when they are having problems.

Amazinblu

September 20th, 2022 at 10:34 AM ^

Phill,

Great question - and, for context - this is "who" I am.  I am a Michigan alum - and, am the father of two children who are currently sophomores at Michigan.  How do I have two sophomores at the same time - they are twins.

We live out of state - and, they applied during Covid.   Our children were offered scholarships of  varying degrees - based on the institution.  And, yes, this included four year "full ride" scholarships to certain schools.  Our view was that certain schools did not possess as strong of an academic reputation or rigor as Michigan does. 

Michigan seems to use it's Merit based Financial Aid for in-state students.   So, if you are out of state - and your son's track record is strong (as you indicate) - you may, or may not, receive any merit based grants or aid.   This varies by institution.

Of our two children - one is studying engineering while the other is in LSA with intentions of pursuing a career in Medicine as a physician.

There are a number of great comments here - thus far.

First - I strongly suggest your son apply Early Action, if available.   That will give as early of an answer as possible for their acceptance decision direction - 1) accept, 2) defer to regular decision, or 3) decline.

Second - absolutely attend any college fairs in your areas that Michigan participates in.   And, meet the Admission Advisor for your school / area.   Oh, as an FYI - the Advisor doesn't want to meet you - they want to meet your son.   

Third - visit campus.   This would be a "formal" / registered campus visit / tour - etc.   This is run by Admissions.   Information on available dates is on the University Admissions web site - and, the "next available date" - is 31 October.   Depending on where you live - and discussions your son has had with an Admissions Counselor - see if he can sit in on a class or two during that visit.  If you can't sit in the on the day you visit campus - see if you can plan a future visit - AND - sit in on a few classes.

Fourth - the essays are critical.   And, this is where your son has a chance to express himself - who he is - what his areas of interest are - and - what he will bring to Michigan's academic community.  The Admissions Counselors who supported our children's "offer of admission" - noted that their essays distinguished them and really stood out.   

Honesty, IMO, is essential in the essays - and, Michigan values DEI - Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion.   If these are characteristics your son exhibits - I believe it would be appropriate and valuable to mention them.   And, duration of "involvement" to various organizations / interests is important too.  So - it's better to have been involved in an organization cause for multiple years - "going deep" in my term - rather than be "thin" - being involved in many organizations for a short period of time.

Fifth - as noted above - Admissions wants to know your son.   That is what is important.  I would suggest your son maintain contact with his Admissions Advisor - however, those communications should be "material" in nature - not just asking about the weather - or a "Go Blue" on the result of last Saturday's game.   He should ask questions - or - for more detailed information in his area of interest.

Good luck - and, Go Blue!

P.S. My wife and I value academics greatly - and, feel that Michigan offers a tremendous balance of academic growth, social development, and athletics.

Amazinblu

September 20th, 2022 at 11:43 AM ^

Phil, 

Glad my perspective helps.   And, as a point of reference - our children applied to 15 schools each.  Their GPA's were "in excess" of 4.0 - because AP classes gave them the potential for a "5.0" with an A.

We visited a number of schools - the total number of campuses we visited was over 30.   We began with "local" schools - and, the vast majority were "AAU" member institutions - Association of American Universities.   The schools included Ivies, private "non Ivies" (including Vanderbilt, Washington University in St. Louis, Carnegie Mellon, Georgetown, and Johns Hopkins), Liberal Arts schools - (e.g. Swarthmore), and Big 10 schools - (Michigan,  Northwestern, Illinois (we live in Illinois), and Wisconsin).

We were planning visits to even more schools - but, Covid really impacted On Campus visits when our children were applying.  We had to cancel trips to the west coast and Boston.

I think the key element is - what environment will best promote your son's success.   Visit as many campuses as you can - and, during those visits - in addition to the tour and sitting in on classes - see if you can have a meal at a college dining hall.   Oh - again, if possible - visit on a "school day" - so, he can see what it's like when classes are in session.

phill

September 20th, 2022 at 12:20 PM ^

Thanks again.

We did a midwest tour and a east coast tour. He is also applying to some schools on the west coast. He does have a perfect GPA and is attending college this year (as a senior)

Yes, covid would have made visits hard, I can see that. When we toured Michigan (the first school we toured, early this year), we had masks on our faces and there were only so many places we were allowed to go. Made the whole thing hard

Thanks for all the good pointers

mvp

September 20th, 2022 at 11:37 AM ^

Lots of good advice here.  The most important thing from my perspective: whatever school he attends will only be as good as he makes it.  Of course, reputation, prestige, networking, and job opportunities are linked to how different schools rank.  But for his success, the most important thing is him: how he applies himself and what he chooses to do with the opportunity.

Another key piece of advice: if you think you've "arrived" you're done.  In other words, getting in isn't the thing.  Just because you get into Michigan, or anywhere else, success isn't guaranteed. 

It sounds like he is an impressive kid.  Best of luck to him as he takes the next step.

Amazinblu

September 20th, 2022 at 11:45 AM ^

mvp - great points - and, I would add - especially at AAU member schools - like Michigan, for students to explore research or "similar" activities where they can be more involved with a smaller group - AND - get a better understanding of their academic / professional areas of interest.

phill

September 20th, 2022 at 2:49 PM ^

He is prepared to study and apply. I'm lucky that way.

He hates/doesn't like the application process as it takes too long and is too "random"

 

My job is to take the advice here and other places and be there for him and let him talk it out. He will not attest to hiring anyone. But he will talk to me about his feelings about the process. My wife stays out of it. His sister is in middle school.So it's me and her, we hear about it all on walks.

TeslaRedVictorBlue

September 20th, 2022 at 12:42 PM ^

I don't have a lot to say on the pre-med. But I would say... he should visit a number of schools. If he's interested in being in a city, or another type of campus, then being a fan of the football team isn't a reason to go to UM.

For example, if he's looking at Ivy's, Brown and Columbia have pretty unique opportunities and UM cannot offer, in terms of campus life and life experience. Harvard the same (in Boston). Has he looked at JHU?

Agree with those that said cast a wide net. I don't know what the application cost is now, but if you're planning to pay for any of the schools in the Ivys or UM, then, I don't think the application costs will break the bank. 

He should earnestly go visit the ones that interest him most. All these schools will pave a great path for him, and all these degrees will carry weight. But, I'd recommend looking beyond that to the experience he wants to have.

He can still go to an Ivy (or others) and be a UM football fan.

phill

September 20th, 2022 at 2:14 PM ^

We did checkout JHU and Harvard, both.

He does have a fairly wide net. He is kinda light on safety schools but that is because he is almost guaranteed admission to the local school, she he attends it now (this year)

Exactly. He says if he goes to ivy, he will still take his Michigan shirts and be a Michigan football fan

MaynardST

September 20th, 2022 at 1:14 PM ^

I went many years ago and although my kids didn't decide to go, I did visit with one when he was applying and set up a meeting with the Honors College.  That was illuminating and I suggest you do that with your son when he has a chance.  Ask specific questions which have been prepared in advance.

Amazinblu

September 20th, 2022 at 1:34 PM ^

Phil, one other thing to consider is - the type of Decision you - and your son - are applying for.

As I believe you know - there are three options - 1) Early Decision, 2) Early Action, and 3) Regular Decision.

If finances are not an issue - and - your son has a clear #1 - then, I would suggest you consider Early Decision - and, my perspective is - that may make a difference at an Ivy.  It could be a small factor - but, would demonstrate how deep his interest is in that school.   As you probably know, if your son applies Early Decision - and is offered admission - the entire process is done.  Early Decision is binding - and, the financial aspects of the offer may be set as well.

My children applied to 15 schools each - and, applied Early Action whenever it was available.  Neither of my children applied Early Decision to any school.

phill

September 20th, 2022 at 2:23 PM ^

Yes @Amazinblu. He is aware of those.

In fact there is also now restricted early action (schools like Harvard/Yale/Princeton etc). You are allowed to apply to only 1 pvt college in early rounds but as many public ones as you want. Unlike EDs, it is not binding, however.

His list for early is his top choice (ivy), Michigan and couple safeties. 

If he gets into Michigan, he will prefer it over many private Universities, but not all. I am just hoping he gets in.

All the hoopla over essays etc has given rise to a cottage industry of counsellors, which I don't like either, but would go with. But he considers it 'unethical'. he wants to do it himself and as a Dad, I just have to hope for the best. I am not a control freak, but have to let it go. He is 17, after all and will be an adult next year

 

Amazinblu

September 20th, 2022 at 3:07 PM ^

Phil,

A couple of points to consider.  And, it certainly seems like both you and your son are taking a great approach to this.  FWIW - I wasn't aware of the restricted early action option - that may have been created after the onset of CV.

A few other points - if I may.   I would suggest your son explore two things about the various universities he's especially interested in.  One, understand the degree program he will pursue - yes, it's pre-med - but, highlight aspects of that degree program and WHY he feels that university is special - unique - what he would get from it - and - what he might be able to contribute.  Two, clubs and groups at the university - again, why he's interested and what he might contribute. 

I'd also suggest looking into university wide initiatives and their relevance to his interests.  For instance - Cornell has initiatives in Sustainability and Global Development - which, though they may apply, or be of interest to your son, are good to be aware of.  

I believe it's essential to be university specific - and, not reply with a plethora of organizations - just one or two.

Regarding the cottage industry of "essay writers" - I concur 100%.   We did not engage any "college coaches" - or essay writers.

We followed the following approach - since, there might be items to raise that you (as a father / adult) might understand, but - your son may not be as aware of.    So, what was our approach for the essays. 

First, our children would draft them - with the word limits, etc.   

Second, (this didn't happen often) their English teacher in school might offer to review them.

Then, I (their father) would read their essays via Google Docs - and, would edit them as I felt could be appropriate. 

After my edits - my wife would review them - and, then - they essays would go back to the children with their thoughts.   I would emphasize that I would not write their essays, in fact far from it.  I would try to "clarify" their thoughts / answers - to make the response "crisper and more direct - or clear."

Again, I hope this helps... 

phill

September 20th, 2022 at 4:23 PM ^

Amazinblu

That's a great point about exploring the degree at the university. I will have him read your post. So Thanks

As far as the essay, again thanks for validating my approach. I will review it and so will my wife, but we will only review for if he has "missed" something. He writes better than me (an Engineer) and his mother (a Teacher), so the chances of us correcting anything are remote. No college coaches but yes, he will have his teacher at the local U read it. He is not attending high school, attends the local U full time, just coaches at his high school for debate since he made the nationals last year. So not in touch with high school teachers as much

Thanks again!

phill

September 20th, 2022 at 3:32 PM ^

The one thing I would say is read to him!!

If they are strong in that department, Math will come to them too. As a lot of math involves reading. Once you are strong in reading and Math, you grow from there.

I give a lot of credit to my wife, but I did read to him too. But my wife would read to him a lot.

When both my kids were little, we did TV, only on weekends. That has become a habit now. We do watch football on weekends and an occasional Monday.

The kid will really guide you from there. Set the base and follow their interests

Hope this helps

Amazinblu

September 20th, 2022 at 7:24 PM ^

1408,

I will share my perspective.

First, be engaged with your child’s education.  

Second, as Phil noted - read with them, or to them.  Make it fun.

Third, meet with their teachers every chance you can.  We went to every Parent Teacher conference we could - and met with every teacher - whether they were doing well, or weren’t.

Fourth, positive encouragement.  We never spoke negatively to either of our children about any activity.  Our view - in academics or athletics was always - “tell me what you think.  Three things that went well, and three things you could have done better?”  We never said three mistakes, or blunders, or screw-ups.

Five, talk to them.  Make practice quizzes.  Listen, and help.

Finally, encourage them to ask questions - and - to meet with their teacher to clarify anything they don’t understand.

Be their biggest fan.  And, let them know - they can do anything - everything.

I believe the most precious gifts a parent can give a child are.. time, love, and encouragement.
 

 

Amazinblu

September 21st, 2022 at 10:36 AM ^

Phil, one additional item for your / your son's consideration in conversations with the various school's Admissions and Academic teams.

The item is "research".   The list of schools that you have shared appear to be AAU member schools - and, those schools are very involved with Research.

My suggestion is - your son asks about Research - how can undergraduates get involved in research - what is the breadth, scope, and learning opportunities available - can the research provide academic credit, or is it extracurricular - etc.

I would be happy to speak with you about the approach we, and our children took, in both their application process - as well as how they have engaged in their academics.

If you're interested, please let me know - and, I'll share information about how we can connect "live".

Again - best of luck to your son.  Go Blue!