Blue Middle

December 8th, 2022 at 1:53 PM ^

LOL - "Facts rather than heresy"

Sounds like something from the Handmaid's Tale.

More one-sided info.  That said, UM should be evaluating its internal practices regarding player safety and medical care.

TheCube

December 8th, 2022 at 2:01 PM ^

As a doc I hate this shit. 

There’s a process to treating spinal injuries and surgery isn’t a panacea. Far. From. It. 

NSGs and Orthos, both of whom who perform spinal surgeries, I’ve worked with never advocate for surgery quickly outside of emergent cases. 1/3 of pts get better; 1/3 worse; 1/3 stay the same. 
I can’t fault UM for being cautious with a young person who gets hit for a living having spinal surgery unless all other options are exhausted first. 

schreibee

December 8th, 2022 at 3:07 PM ^

Who amongst us is knowledgeable enough about HIPAA to explain why UM must still remain mum after the All family has agreed to release details about his chosen course of treatment & what UM Medical personnel advised? 

It seems preposterous that only 1 side is allowed to release info, attacking another Medical entity for their diagnosis & recommended course of action, while the side being criticized cannot respond? 

naters113

December 8th, 2022 at 3:16 PM ^

He probably signed the release to allow this to happen with the new doctors, but it is not on file with the U of M medical staff so we have to sit there and take it. I applaud the UM doctors for being more conservative in their approach, given spinal surgery success rate. 

Denard In Space

December 8th, 2022 at 5:01 PM ^

The person signing the Release of Information can specify exactly what the provider is or isn't allowed to disclose. So theoretically All could sign a release with the quack doctors and rescind permissions from the university.  It was clearly a press release coordinated with the All family though, so there were probably more involved legal documents than a standard ROI. 

That being said, whether it's "legal" or not to Tweet about your medical patient, I don't know a lot of providers that wouldn't consider that shady and unethical.  

On Twitter, All's dad said that Erick and all student athletes have to sign a "waiver" so the team can disclose injuries. Weird given how the athletic department never says shit about anyone's injury status  

 

Double-D

December 8th, 2022 at 11:57 PM ^

Hippa is a healthcare privacy rule that is all encompassing.  Any healthcare provider is sworn to secrecy within the healthcare environment. If you were a nurse and saw your neighbor in the hospital for a CT scan and casually told your other neighbor that I saw so and so you could lose your job and your practice could be liable. It’s taken very serious by all providers and those who work in the environment. It’s designed around patient protection and patient compliance. It’s confidentially.  It’s like paying a lawyer a retainer except in healthcare the contract is assumed. 

Ernis

December 9th, 2022 at 11:03 AM ^

Pro tip: Anyone who spells it "HIPPA" doesn't know what they're talking about.

The family can publicize any information they want, and they can designate which providers get to release what information.

This statement for Erick All Sr. is undoubtedly bullshit: "I have you know he signed a waiver his first day on campus. I would love for them to release his records. They don’t want that because they don’t want the facts released. It’s simple they fell my son and many others that’s come through their program."

HIPAA guarantees that patients have the right to access and obtain copies of their records and also guarantees their right to direct covered entities (i.e. healthcare providers) to disclose PHI to other entities or individuals on their behalf. If Erick Jr. wanted, he could direct Michigan Medicine to send the records to a journalist. He could also obtain the records and release them himself. Simple as that.

Denard In Space

December 8th, 2022 at 2:14 PM ^

This makes the most sense to me.  The situation stinks, and it sounds like a bunch of bullshit from the All camp.  Red flags everywhere: 
 

  • UM still pays for the surgery, never acknowledged
  • Doctor defensively tweeting about medical procedures touting their credential (even if legally authorized by the family wtf kind of doctor tweets about their patients)
  • When they publicized the story, All reports it is "life changing" and the clinic's press release changes it to "life saving" 
  • Continued vague allusion to being treated poorly without any clear explanation of what actually happened

The only thing that concerns me here is what happened to make the All camp SO mad? Clearly they feel personally aggrieved, and so I think it is a sign that perhaps even if the UM staff's decision itself is medically sound, something about the way it is communicated or handled internally may need to be looked at.  

ERdocLSA2004

December 8th, 2022 at 2:20 PM ^

I think the All family’s disgruntlement is the easiest thing to answer.  UM medical said “no surgery”.  All then went to Florida, had the non-recommended procedure at an outside facility, then UM medical refused to clear him to play since A.) they didn’t do the surgery nor did any other reputable institution, and B.) they advised against surgery in the first place.  If you’re a team physician, you’re not going to take the liability of biospine performing a surgery you advised against.  Maybe JH promised he’d change the medical teams stance and it didn’t happen?

TrueBlue2003

December 8th, 2022 at 3:12 PM ^

Are you suggesting that whomever did this surgery wasn't reputable?  Sounds like they were and I can't imagine UM paying for it if they weren't.  Which still seems like the weirdest part of the whole thing.  Supposedly UM paid for it which suggests they approved of the procedure.  That's very confusing.

Even if it is a reputable facility, I still think it's potentially reasonable to not yet clear him if they didn't think the surgery was necessary (but again, why pay for it if it wasn't necessary).

I can't imagine JH promised he'd get him cleared but I can see how he might have said he'd see what he can do and All interpreted that as "yeah, I'll take care of it."

teldar

December 8th, 2022 at 4:21 PM ^

UM paid for it because a surgeon said it was reasonable and it was an injury sustained playing football.

And there are a lot of surgeons I wouldn't let do surgery on me( I do anesthesia, not a surgeon) but they are still accredited. Physicians who are not good at their jobs make it though residency. From stories, it sounds like a lot of bad surgeons to to Florida. I won't practice in Florida.

WayOfTheRoad

December 8th, 2022 at 3:23 PM ^

This seems like the most logical outcome. The little I've heard basically fits perfectly into this narrative.

Wasn't ok'd, went elsewhere, feels better, staff still won't clear for liability sake. The anger comes from that and then likely topped-off by people telling him that it will be ok'd eventually.

The thing that makes it weird is that he was all laughs and smiles in Indianapolis, to players and coaches. Literally the next day I first hear that he is transferring. I think "ok, it kinda makes sense if Loveland is where he is". Then All and his family go nuclear out the door. It's weird.

All was tight with Cade so that's not helping the situation but it's crazy to see the guy a few weeks ago happy as can be, see him in Indy as happy as can be and then the next day he's doing this. It feels gross.

Ernis

December 9th, 2022 at 10:43 AM ^

Just reading the tweets, I'm getting a big "drama lord" vibe from the Senior All, and also the doctor tweeting about the medical details (the bit about "ego driven" is a huge sign saying "WARNING! Purveyor of WOO WOO Bullshit!"). The red flags you mention reek of grifter tabloid narrative. Like they're on Jerry Springer.

That said, while it's unfortunate to see all this stuff from the family reek of bullshit, it definitely makes me proud to see that UM was providing the more risk-averse / less likely to be profit-driven guidance.

ERdocLSA2004

December 8th, 2022 at 2:15 PM ^

Agreed.  I’m still curious as to what the disagreement is about.  UM docs said “no surgery”.  Does that mean they felt like he didn’t need it and that rehab would be adequate?  Or was this injury so significant that they actually thought he should medically retire?  I‘m inclined to think the former and that they were promised a speedier recovery by biospine.  I certainly can’t blame UM medical for not clearing someone to play after having surgery at an outside facility for a procedure they advised against.  We’ll see if other schools find the biospine tweet more comforting when they have to decide to clear him or not.

gopoohgo

December 8th, 2022 at 2:28 PM ^

"I'm still curious as to what the disagreement is about.  UM docs said "no surgery""  

From being curious and looking at the Biospine website, they had a link in their 'minimally invasive surgery" re; PLIF, or posterior lumbar interbody fusion.  

Could envision a scenario where the UM docs said All failed nonoperative treatment for a herniated disc and advocated for a less aggressive (take out chunk of disc that herniated without fusion) surgery. 

Would imagine fusion without associated instability (lumbar bones moving around) is a very very very last case scenario in someone in their early twenties who plays FBS football.

teldar

December 8th, 2022 at 5:01 PM ^

Not everybody does the same minimally invasive stuff. There's a difference. Hugely. 

 

However.

 

I would posit one of two expanations

1. He's had a fusion and there UM docs won't let someone play after a fusion

2. He's had some other deformity that caused issues and UM says no go no matter what.

I would guess something more like the former as it sounds like there was a path back to the field.

Australopithecus

December 8th, 2022 at 2:31 PM ^

Also allegedly a doc (albeit not a spine surgeon), and I 100% echo this. I'm not familiar with Eric's surgeon, but it looks like he was formerly a Laser Spine Institute guy. That's not a great reputation to have among physicians. 

I don't know the UM spine team well, but I've worked with their ortho sports and joints groups a fair amount. They're excellent and fully invested in getting players back on the field.

I'm sure Eric made the decision that made the most sense to him, but I wonder what the South Florida "Biospine" surgeons told him to convince him to leave the UM system for his surgery. This is purely speculative, but I would guess UM recommended against operative intervention whereas this guy promised a cure.

Hoping the best for Eric. 

Communist Football

December 8th, 2022 at 3:32 PM ^

More background on the Laser Spine Institute:

Last Friday, March 1st, the Laser Spine Institute abruptly announced its closure, immediately shutting down locations and ceasing all operations at their Cincinnati, St. Louis, Scottsdale, and Tampa Bay locations. This has left both employees and patients in the dark as to their next steps. Many patients already had surgeries scheduled which won’t be performed, due to the closure of the Laser Spine Institute offices. What should patients effected by these closures do?

The Laser Spine Institute has been operating for the past 14 years, most recently spending a whopping $56 million on their headquarters in Tampa three years ago. Not a stranger to legal trouble, the Laser Spine Institute has paid out close to $300 million as ordered by the court in multiple lawsuits. In 2013, the institute drew national attention with they were sued by celebrity wrestler, Terry “Hulk Hogan” Bollea for ineffective treatments.

Now, with this abrupt closure, the Laser Spine Institute has drawn ire from patients and employees. Three employees have already taken legal action, filing federal lawsuits against the company in response the shutdown. However, the remaining question is: How will patients get the procedures they so desperately need?

The most unfortunate aspect of the abrupt closure of the Laser Spine Institute is its effect on the patients. Many have already paid deposits and scheduled surgeries that they hoped would relieve a spinal condition and its painful symptoms. Left scrambling, patients are now desperately trying to schedule an appointment with other surgeons nearby the closed institute locations in Scottsdale, Cincinnati, Tampa, and St. Louis.

Blue1972

December 8th, 2022 at 2:38 PM ^

As a physician and trying to read between the lines, All may have had an artificial disc implanted. It's my guess that UM specialists did not feel such an operation was necessary or likely to correct whatever his problem was..

Also, if Biospine is so inclined to tout its doctor's training at the "#1" neurosurgical center in the country, then they should have recommended Johns Hopkins to All for another opinion and consideration of having the surgery at Hopkins.

Also, even if UM Medical received a release from All, I doubt very much they would go public with any information so those asking about that are barking up the wrong tree.

 

 

 

Blue1972

December 8th, 2022 at 4:14 PM ^

First of all, Mr. All has easy access to all the physician notes from UM due to the Cares Act/Cares Rule and he can post those on the Internet if he wishes.

UM Medical has no current active role in his care, and regardless whether All signs a release or not, I will guarantee that UM Medical has no need or interest in making any sort of public statement. 

What's done is done and UM Medical making any sort of statement isn't necessary or beneficial to any party. UM Medical will not engage.

Boomer519

December 8th, 2022 at 3:59 PM ^

My wife manages the NSG practice that did my back surgery after an on the job injury firefighting I can 100% back this up. I still have consistent pain even after rehab. Surgery just isn't a guarantee to anything especially for a person looking to get back into contact sports. Her doctors routinely require multiple steps to be completed before surgery becomes an option. 

Soulfire21

December 8th, 2022 at 1:57 PM ^

I'm ready to just be done with this saga. Thanks for your time here Erick (especially the 2021 Penn State game), I respect your decision to do whatever you think is in your best interest, let's move on.

Mattinboots

December 8th, 2022 at 1:57 PM ^

Dad's tweet makes no sense.  If the injury was found in June and it needed surgery, then why didn't the doctor providing such good care demand surgery before three games in to the season?  Let that sink in.

kookie

December 8th, 2022 at 3:58 PM ^

This whole situation is exactly like the Jack Eichel saga with Buffalo down to the same injury. There is no medical consensus on how to treat the injury and doctors have widely varying opinions. Time will likely tell who was right, but I'm guessing the Alls found a doctor who told them what they wanted to hear and they feel misled/poorly advised over the whole situation.