ak47

December 31st, 2016 at 8:28 PM ^

Going to cost potentially millions of dollars. Damn shame and why nobody should ever ask a player with a high draft grade to come back

Joined: 05/05/2011

MGoPoints: 33614

DairyQueen

December 31st, 2016 at 10:30 PM ^

Does anyone remember which ACL he tore as an underclassman?

Also, I believe that tear was a non-contact, does anyone recall (contact versus non-contact tear is also a strong predictor of recovery/future tear).

I did undergrad research with a UM med-school orthopedic surgeon specializing in knee and shoulder repairs, and you can distinctly tell that Butt has a moderate valgus knee motion (the strongest indication for a potential cruciate ligament tear) when he runs (think Drake Johnson and Jake Ryan).

Also, Jake Butt only stopped wearing a knee brace midway through this season, I noticed it probably only because from doing research I now have an eye for it.

Joined: 04/20/2014

MGoPoints: 6642

TrueBlue2003

January 1st, 2017 at 12:24 PM ^

because a non-contact injury often indicates a mechanical problem with one's natural movement.  I tore my ACL last year and a lot of the physical therapy evalulations had to do with my natural running and jumping motions and since I have good mechanics, the PTs were very confident in my recovery and subsequent (low) risk of recurrence. If that wasn't the case, they would have done a lot of work with me to fix those issues.

Joined: 01/05/2010

MGoPoints: 38075

DairyQueen

January 1st, 2017 at 12:34 PM ^

Actually it does.

A non-contact ACL tear occurs during pathological mechanics and poor motor-patterning, placing undue stress on the knee joint completely at the volition of the athlete

A contact ACL tear can occur during perfect joint mechanics on behalf of the athlete, who has simply hit during their otherwise pathology-free running/cutting motions

A non-contact ACL tear is strongly predictive of future knee problems, compared to contact-only ACL tears, and that's not even controlling for pathological knees that were contact-ACL tears.

It's night and day.

Joined: 04/20/2014

MGoPoints: 6642

CoverZero

January 1st, 2017 at 12:11 AM ^

I noticed he was not wearing the knee brace in the practice videos this past week which were in shorts and shoulder pads.  Perhaps it would not have made a difference.

Does one ACL injury that is repaired mean that it will be weakened forever or do they generally heal up 100%?

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Goggles Paisano

January 1st, 2017 at 6:33 AM ^

The issue is working through the scar tissue that builds up.  Getting that full range of motion back takes time.  I tore mine back in the mid 90's and it took a couple years to get it back.  This is why you sometimes don't see a guy get back to 100% until year 2 of the recovery.  I don't believe I have ever heard of the ACL forever being weakened. 

Joined: 07/30/2011

MGoPoints: 41232

TrueBlue2003

January 1st, 2017 at 12:32 PM ^

told me that chances of re-injury in younger (under 40ish I think) people tends to be lower than the risk of an initial injury and lower than tearing the other one, which would indicate the reconstructed ligament is often stronger.  ACL's don't heal, they have to be reconstructed with a grafted tendon from your patella or hamstring or a cadaver and that's how it's possible to be stronger, I guess.

Joined: 01/05/2010

MGoPoints: 38075

DairyQueen

January 1st, 2017 at 12:44 PM ^

Haha, definitely serious.

Just google "Robert Griffin knee mechanics", click images, and the first image that comes up will be a frame-by-frame sequence of the pathological valgus knee motion.

It's why he keeps injuring his knees.

Drake Johnson has the exact same thing, actually much worse.

Joined: 04/20/2014

MGoPoints: 6642

TESOE

January 1st, 2017 at 4:49 PM ^

Patients/players are n=1.  We've talked about this before - but your take is not exactly the same if more definitive (to a fault IMO) . You're right Griffin has a similar injury.  Similar isn't the same.  Griffin had LCL as well the second time.  I never heard that Drake had that as well (did he?).  Both had left knee implants for 2nd ACL repair I think.

Griffin's original happened when he was rolled over by Ngata.  It was not running style or cut dependent.  Shit happens in football.

But I see the post injury similarities... prospects and outcome not so much.

Please diagnose Elroy Hirsch next...

 

 

Joined: 09/21/2009

MGoPoints: 8536

Michigan4Life

December 31st, 2016 at 10:51 PM ^

if he slips past 2nd round. It's with cavet that he was rated as a 1st/2nd round prospect by the NFL which is harder to prove. The insurance is harder to collect.

Jake Butt will get drafted at any round and sign with a team which makes this policy null and void. Only way he'll collect it if he never plays football again.

Joined: 07/29/2010

MGoPoints: 25479

Michigan4Life

January 1st, 2017 at 5:11 AM ^

I do understand the situation because NFL scouts told me about it and they said they really don't collect it because it's hard to prove that he was ever considered a top 2 round prospect. That's the little details that you're not getting. Even if Jake Butt get drafted at 4th round, he has to prove to the insurance company that he was considered a 2nd round prospect in order to collect loss of value policy.

How do I know this? My friends are NFL scouts and knows the insurance details which is common for prospects. Marcus Lattimore is the rare exception that he was able to collect the money. Same with Jaylon Smith.



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Joined: 07/29/2010

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grumbler

January 1st, 2017 at 2:24 PM ^

Unless you know specific details about Butt's policy, you'd probably be better off not playing the expert because some guy told you something.

Butt's policy pays off under the conditions specified in the policy, not based on what some guy who says he is an NFL scout tells you on twitter.  The policy probably doesn't require "proof" that Butt "is considered" (by whom?) to be a top-two-round prospect, since the only proof of that is that someone drafts him in the top two rounds.  

You can be sure that, the laxer the standards are for payout, the higher he premiums, but that's all you can count on.  An NFL scout came to my door and told me that, right after I got back from a secret lunch with Harbaugh.

Joined: 08/17/2011

MGoPoints: 14153

Michigan4Life

January 1st, 2017 at 5:57 PM ^

and I didn't get this from twitter. It's straight from the source and they see this thing all the time. I know both of them for a long time and they are in the business for a while. That kind of insurance rarely pays out because it's much more difficult for a prospect to prove that they are considered to be a 1st/2nd round prospect.

The proof has to come from the NFL to provide for the prospect.

Joined: 07/29/2010

MGoPoints: 25479

TrueBlue2003

January 1st, 2017 at 12:44 PM ^

the business of insurance is, in part, avoiding payouts for what was not covered by the policy. Insurance companies deal with a tremendous amount of shady, fraudulent activity from policyholders, so yeah, they'll do what they can to make sure they can meet their obligations to the pool.

Insurance companies willingly pay out covered losses because for one, it's a highly regulated business and they're statutorily required to, and for two, it's good business to fulfil your promises.

Are there random bad actors just like any industry? Sure.  But it's not generally a shady business overall.

Joined: 01/05/2010

MGoPoints: 38075

reshp1

December 31st, 2016 at 9:59 PM ^

Unless there are complicating issues, ACL tears aren't nearly as big of a deal as they used to be. Hopefully it isn't the same one he tore last time, since that might raise some flags. It'll cost him a few spots, but I think he'll do pretty well for himself still. Edit: fuck, it does look to be the right knee both times.

Joined: 10/31/2011

MGoPoints: 34177

slimj091

January 1st, 2017 at 12:21 AM ^

"never once crossed my mind to sit this game out and I would never change that mindset. I play this game [because] I love it."

That doesn't sound like a player that was asked to come back. That sounds like a player that wanted to come back, and not sit on the sideline like a girly man.

Although it's easy for someone who sits on a couch for a living to question the judgement of these players.

Joined: 01/04/2014

MGoPoints: 9542

mgoDAB

December 31st, 2016 at 8:28 PM ^

I feel terrible for him. We sure loved watching you every Saturday, Jake. Thank you for the four years. Best of luck in the future and get better soon!

Joined: 01/04/2015

MGoPoints: 2887

MotownGoBlue

December 31st, 2016 at 8:29 PM ^

And still not an ounce of resentment. Bummer deal for such a good guy. That's twice now? I hope the healing process is quick and someone takes a mid round flyer on him.

Joined: 08/09/2014

MGoPoints: 25350

The FannMan

December 31st, 2016 at 8:34 PM ^

He could have gone out of bounds, but he tried to turn it up and score.  For The Team, for Michigan, and for us fans.

I just don't have words for how much this good and truly sucks.  In lieu of adequate expressions, I will just add my wishes and prayers for a speedy recovery.  But saying that just seems so freaking trite and lame.

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