Balas: Herbert wanted to stay, but M wouldn't give him the long-term deal he wanted
According to Chris Balas ($), Ben Herbert wanted to stay at Michigan, and told Michigan what it would take to keep him, and Warde Manuel didn't give it to him. Manuel said at the Sherrone press conference that he was doing his "due diligence" on Herbert. Apparently he didn't do enough of it.
So we can blame Harbaugh all we want but this seems like Warde Manuel's fault for not doing what it takes to retain the most important coach in the program.
January 29th, 2024 at 4:27 PM ^
How does the revenue and budget of an NFL team compare with the athletic department of a top D1 program? How much is too much, even for Michigan, and how long is too long? Is a contract 5 times the size of any other such coach too much? You might argue that such a contract was not asked for… but the point is that I’m arguing that we’re foolish to make assumptions without evidence and you’re saying you don’t need evidence.
January 29th, 2024 at 4:44 PM ^
Yeah, people seem to think that UM can financially compete with an NFL franchise, which is crazy. On top of that, the practical issue is if you give a huge deal to the S&C guy then everyone else needs to get a new deal because of you're rewarding one guy that Hart, Clinkscale, Elston, etc. are going to need new deals to justify the new economics. So it's not "just" a 10-year, $2M/yr deal it's 4-5 new deals for millions more. And UM doesn't print money forever; they do have budgets.
January 29th, 2024 at 8:00 PM ^
Turn field hockey into a club sport. Problem solved.
January 29th, 2024 at 5:55 PM ^
What's "a lot"?
Isn't that a market based definition, not a "compared to what I make" definition?
If $1 million was considered "a lot" before the NC, is it still? If it was "a lot" before a competing offer came for more, is it still?
If you were offered $1 million for your house and your realtor told you it was "a lot", would it still feel like it was "a lot" if your neighbor got an offer for their similar house for $2 million?
"A lot" is a very relative thing...
January 29th, 2024 at 4:07 PM ^
Make *what* better? What did Herbert (allegedly) want? 10-year contract? Lifetime contract? $2 million/year? $5 million? Did he want to report directly to the AD and not to the new coach?
If anyone can point me to any of those details, I can decide whether to be mad.
January 29th, 2024 at 4:34 PM ^
It's a Balas article so expecting those types of details is a fool's errand.
January 29th, 2024 at 4:34 PM ^
UM is not going to outspend an NFL team for a guy the former coach wants is, in fact, a truism that neither reflects positively or negatively on the AD.
January 29th, 2024 at 3:53 PM ^
Yeh- I can't believe that people are holding this against Jim. He has a new job and he wants to succeed. He wants the best staff he can possibly assemble- which is what he did at Michigan. He clearly values Ben Herbert more than what Michigan without Jim does. A few days ago people were saying Jim was going to the NFL no matter what. I don't believe that was necessarily the case, But I get that is the prevailing opinion and I understand why people concluded that.
We were told by Blog leadership despite some evidence to the contrary, before it happened ( Sam and Craig Ross noting Jim's high regard for Ben and that might well translate into offering him) that there was no way we would lose Ben, because S &C guys are relatively unimportant in the NFL. Two guys at least: Jim and Ben didn't share that view and that was what mattered. he can now be the highest paid S & C coach in the NFL, and maybe all of football.
January 29th, 2024 at 5:07 PM ^
The argument I didn’t get was why would Herbert want to leave to be an “unknown” S&C coach in the NFL? Herbert’s already an unknown to everyone who isn’t a serious Michigan fan. The NFL is pure football, played at the highest level, and he’d be working with an even better class of athletes than he did at Michigan. I also imagine an NFL job might be an entree to big money gigs as a personal trainer for wealthy superstars, if he has any interest in that. There were plenty of reasons why he might want to leave.
January 29th, 2024 at 3:53 PM ^
i have 2 concerns with this post:
1. i don't trust anything balas says any further than i could throw him
2. maybe it's specified at the link, but this post doesn't say what herbert asked for. I know he was valuable to the program, but what if he asked for stuff that's just ridiculous or stuff that UM couldn't actually do? Defensive coordinator? $3M? Immunity from something? Lifetime contract? A new facility?
I'm none too enamored with Warde, but there's not enough info in this post for me to put the blame on him. Maybe there's more detail at the Balas post that I can't see.
January 29th, 2024 at 3:53 PM ^
This feels like when a company acquires another company and sends one of their own in to start shaving salary and cutting the fat from the acquired company.
The saddest part is that Warde probably won't do anything with all the money he saved from letting JH, Minter, and Herbert walk. He gave Sherrone peanuts, so the money isn't going there. I have no faith that he'll make splash moves with that warchest. We're all hoping he does, but history shows he'll just keep low balling people.
January 29th, 2024 at 3:57 PM ^
there might not be a war chest. it might just be the boosters who had agreed to pony up the $12M for Harbaugh no longer willing to pay
January 29th, 2024 at 5:21 PM ^
They saved money just by getting Harbaugh's contract off the books and switching to Moore. That money was already allocated.
As for the proposed Harbaugh contract, the athletic department's revenue exceeded expenses by over $17M last year. I would call that profit, but the goal of an athletic department isn't to make a profit. Additionally, they spent like $40M on scoreboards. The money is definitely there.
January 29th, 2024 at 4:13 PM ^
The worst thing about it is all the defenders when we short change and fall short as an Athletic Department. The baseball thing will always chap my ass. Dont throw money at mediocre but if you are playing for a world series or leading a National Championship weight training program dont shit your pants. The dominant programs in football dont get beat at the checkbook, ever. And before anyone starts that Miami, Texas A and M bullshit that is a failure in leadership and player identification. Our coaches dont have that problem.
January 29th, 2024 at 4:18 PM ^
Sherrone getting $5M/year is "peanuts"? Others might say that was generous for a 37 year old with no (true) HC experience - at *any* level - and only 1 year as solo OC.
It would not be unfair to say that Moore has to prove something (to an extent, with proper adjustments in expectations) as HC before getting a raise.
January 29th, 2024 at 5:15 PM ^
It's peanuts in comparison to what DeBoer, Lanning, and even Jedd Fisch are making.
If you think he deserves to be the Head Coach at Michigan without a coaching search (which I agree with) then pay him as such. If he agreed to take less to allocate money to assistants, that'd be amazing. But they just let Herbert walk for what 1 year of Harbaugh would've cost (if Herbert wanted a 10 year contract at or near his current $1M annual salary).
January 29th, 2024 at 6:16 PM ^
Ok... compare the *resumes* of DeBoer, Lanning and Fisch to Sherrone's. Major disparities - hence the pay difference. He was not getting "peanuts" for his current resume value.
If Sherrone had been coming from a position of greater experience he'd probably get more... and if Jr proves himself in a year or two in this job he'll certainly earn one.
You would find this is *any* field - organizations pay for proven results more than potential.
Trying to parlay that into what Ben Herbert should/was offered (*rumored*), is unrelated.
January 30th, 2024 at 9:57 AM ^
Then Warde should be fired for hiring the wrong coach. If Warde believes DeBoer, Lanning and Fisch are worth nearly 2x what Moore is worth, why did he hire Moore? Doesn't he believe Michigan deserves a top 5 coach in the country? Go hire DeBoer, Lanning or Fisch, then. Or someone in that tier. That's the problem here. Warde is cheap. It's the same reason we lost Bakich. And hired Juwan Howard for $1.2 million per year!!
January 29th, 2024 at 3:54 PM ^
ok...NOW fire Warde
January 29th, 2024 at 3:54 PM ^
Warde is our first class ticket to being a mediocre program. He’s totally handcuffing Moore’s ability to continue the program on an upward slope. It’s starting to seem like he wants the football program to fail. I hope I’m wrong.
January 29th, 2024 at 4:07 PM ^
Have you considered that Warde also has bosses? It’s not Warde’s money that gets paid to coaches. I’d imagine he’s fine paying huge salaries that don’t come out of his pocket. But maybe the UNIVERSITY has some say in what should be paid to a strength coach. Maybe Herbert demanded too much. We just don’t know. Also, anything Balas reports tends to be off.
January 29th, 2024 at 4:13 PM ^
Warde makes over $1 million per year and his department brings in a massive amount of revenue into the school. I'm fairly certain he has quite a bit of budgetary discretion.
Balas may be full of shit, but Warde is a lousy AD.
January 29th, 2024 at 4:34 PM ^
The AD is miniscule.
The hospital system lost 15x last years AD revenue in 2020.
January 29th, 2024 at 3:55 PM ^
I'm so tired of Warde
January 29th, 2024 at 3:56 PM ^
Warde is desperately clinging to mediocrity.
January 29th, 2024 at 3:57 PM ^
Lame. The guy was 1 year into the richest contract in the ncaa for his job position. At some point you have to say no. This tells me he wanted the Chargers gig more than he wanted to stay here. If he wanted to be here, he'd be here.
January 29th, 2024 at 3:58 PM ^
Not sure if Balas is a good source but if true then not sure what Warde is looking at when making his decisions. If this were the NFL and this was about money then the department would have plenty of cap room freed up with Harbaugh’s departure to the Chargers.
January 29th, 2024 at 3:58 PM ^
I mean, maybe? - but if the AD just screwed your close friend and mentor, you probably don't sign with the same program from Tress' perspective, right? I'm sure Herbert would have taken him to LA instead if the well water was poisoned here? I guess there's a lot I'd be willing to put up with for the kind of raise Tress probably got to take over, but I don't know.
January 29th, 2024 at 3:59 PM ^
If it's true that he wanted a 10-year deal, I wouldn't have given that to him. You'd be insane to do so.
January 29th, 2024 at 4:02 PM ^
not sure if you noticed or not but almost everything about college football is insane these days and call me crazy but i think being locked into the guy who's the best at in the nation at their job and whom players love for 10 years seems pretty ok to me
January 29th, 2024 at 4:02 PM ^
Why if the guy has proven to be a great strength coach? This is a strength coach, it does not remotely come with the same downsides or risks of giving a HC a ten year contract. And the insane is now the norm anyways, and you either adapt or fall behind. And UM will fall behind no matter how good Moore turns out to be if they do not start doing a better job of adapting to the way things are in the AD.
January 29th, 2024 at 4:29 PM ^
No AD would do so. Like I said, Herbert demanded it fully knowing nobody would give thAt, and it allows him to save face with the players he's leaving.
January 29th, 2024 at 4:00 PM ^
It is a good thing Warde has had great success replacing coaches in recent years *ducks*
January 29th, 2024 at 4:00 PM ^
Pretty obvious at this point that if Moore has any significant success it will be in spite of Manuel's incompetence.
January 29th, 2024 at 4:04 PM ^
Sorta depends what he asked for, doesn’t it?!
January 29th, 2024 at 4:05 PM ^
I'm not a big Warde fan, but the guy literally signed Herbert to 5 years and over a million dollars per LESS THAN ONE YEAR ago. We can't have it both (Warde won't pony up the $) when he did just that very recently.
So it seems pretty important for Balas to include how long Herbert was asking for if Balas is indeed so well connected? It presumably was longer than 5 which is kind of unreasonable when you consider how attached head coaches are to 'their' S&C guy.
January 29th, 2024 at 4:08 PM ^
I really don't understand this thinking, if the SC signs a long term deal and then leaves at some point you don't have to pay him. The only risk of signing a SC to that long of a contract is if he loses his ability to be effective and their is virtually zero chance of that happening with a guy who is proven.
January 29th, 2024 at 4:41 PM ^
Sam was saying this morning the one problem with paying him so much is the rest of the S&C coordinators for other sports at UM will want a raise as well
I dont remember exactly what he was talking about since I was doing some work but he said something about $875k now for Herbert ?? But JH got him $2million a year and it is by far the highest paid SC in the NFL...like I said, I missed a little but heard parts
January 30th, 2024 at 10:04 AM ^
And you tell them "no". You keep Herbert and let anyone else who wants to walk, walk. Can you name even one of them? Warde already lost Jon Sanderson. And now Herbert. But lucky us, we still have whoever is in charge of S&C for field hockey. Yaaay!!
January 29th, 2024 at 4:15 PM ^
what exactly does "reasonable" mean? JH thought he was worth it, Warde didn't. If you think Warde knows best than i guess you can call it "unreasonable" but based on resume I'm not sure why you'd think Warde knows best.
January 29th, 2024 at 4:07 PM ^
I don't want ANYONE getting a 10 year contract. 🤷
January 29th, 2024 at 4:11 PM ^
Why? What exactly is the downside with a proven SC?
January 29th, 2024 at 4:17 PM ^
Just from a money standpoint, let's say Sherrone bombs and is out in four years. The new coach wants his own guy. Now Michigan is on the hook for $6 mil to Herbert, assuming Herbert doesn't get a pay raise (if he did, then it would be more). That's not to say you couldn't work something into his contract to accommodate that, and other things that might arise, but I think a ten year contract is a risk when the person really serves at the pleasure of the coach, and not the AD. What happened with Sanderson and Juwan may be coloring Warde's perspective as well. Shit happens, dynamics happen, and millions lost for an S & C coach seems a little crazy. (To be clear, I know nothing about what happened here, I'm just responding hypothetically to your question)
January 29th, 2024 at 4:17 PM ^
The downside is if the next HC wants his own guy, of if there is a falling out with Moore, you need to pay for two strength coaches. And you need to pay the second guy the same or close to what you pay the first guy.
Now you can play hardball and tell the next HC "you have to use this S&C guy," but then that hurts negotiation with that coach.
But we don't know exactly what was asked for or how negotiation went. Maybe what was most important was Herbert wants to be employed at UM until his kids graduate High School. If that was most important, then maybe other options could satisfy it (like some other role with less $). There's no way to know what interests and options were discussed.
January 29th, 2024 at 4:11 PM ^
Double post
January 29th, 2024 at 6:48 PM ^
simmer down sparky. It's just two people that gave the same answer at the same time.
January 29th, 2024 at 4:09 PM ^
I think Michigan needs an innovative AD and Warde is, well, not that. However, this seems very one sided and the kind of thing that people put out to save face. Like the leaks from the department that they gave Harbaugh all he asked for which came out about 90 mint before the news that he was going.
Let’s see if this gets confirmed. If so, then, yeah. Not good.
January 29th, 2024 at 4:11 PM ^
Thanks for nothing.....WARDE.
January 29th, 2024 at 4:12 PM ^
I'd say "where there's smoke there's fire", but, at this point, we can pretty plainly see the flames on this sum b!tch...
January 29th, 2024 at 4:13 PM ^
Lots of information needed to fill in the blanks, but man, this looks terrible. This guy isn't just great at his job. He was allegedly a big part of Michigan's culture.
But the missing info is important. It's possible, for example, that Herbert made an 'offer' that was truly outrageous so he could follow Harbaugh. Dude was already making 7 figures.