Another look at the cornerback room

Submitted by blue in dc on August 7th, 2021 at 8:15 AM

In follow-up to the diary I posted comparing the 2011 and 2021 starters, I am going to take another crack at trying to convince my fellow mgobloggers that Coach Clinkscale has some talent at cornerback to work with, and by the late October,  we both may be surprised by who is starting amf the quality of their play.

In 2011, Brian was confident we were likely to see significant improvement from our cornerbacks.   That was largely dependent upon a return of Troy Woolfolk.

“Unless something very depressing happens in the near future I will not need any power tools this year. Troy Woolfolk is healthy, and while he's probably not going to be All Big Ten he's fast and steady enough to get good reviews a couple of years ago when he split time between safety and corner.”

“Opposite Woolfolk the battle is on between sophomore Courtney Avery and redshirt junior JT Floyd. The bet here is that Avery wins that battle. Avery drew into the starting lineup last year when Floyd exited with yet another injury and seemed to outplay the guy he was replacing.”

With regards to backups, Brian noted, “If there are injuries, options past the top three are dicey. With Floyd and Woolfolk held out of spring practice the starting cornerbacks were Avery and Tony Anderson, who's one of many walk-ons threatening for playing time….Beyond Talbott it's true freshmen, but at least there's a horde of them. Maryland's Blake Countess arrives with the most hype and should be the biggest threat to play.”

Turns out that Brian picked the starters for week one, but by week two, Floyd had earned his starting spot back and by week 8, true freshman Blake Countess was the #2 cornerback.  Avery was the nickel and Woolfolk was playing safety, but there is no doubt, the corners were much improved from 2010.

In his 2012 preview, Brian explained, “Michigan's secondary woes didn't start with Rich Rodriguez, who merely carved out a crevasse of hopeless abyssal despair previously unknown to man from a moderately deep trench of hopeless abyssal despair. The secondary has not been good for a long, long time.  But it was last year.”

About the corners specifically, he noted, “Michigan returns their top three corners from a year ago, all of whom were pretty good. The depth has been whittled down by the departures of Terry Talbott and Tamani Carter, but they've got a couple sophomores and a touted freshman and should be okay unless they get a flood of injuries. Give them a year and it'll be time to forget Never Forget.

JT Floyd is the headliner in so many ways. After the Penn State game pictured above I said he'd run "three of the worst coverages I've ever seen," and time has done nothing to change that opinion. He got yanked after that game; his last two games UFRed in 2010 were a –8.5 against Iowa ("oh my God the slants") and the –9 against PSU ("awful, awful, awful"). Everyone was openly petrified that he would play; this space predicted Courtney Avery would start and Countess would usurp Floyd's spot posthaste. Instead Countess usurped Avery's spot and Floyd developed into a pretty good Big Ten corner.”

A 2021 preview might not look too different.   Substitute, Gemon Green for Troy Woolfolk and the combination of Vincent Gray and D.J. Turner for the Floyd/Avery battle.

Woolfolk was composite ranked 771, was returning from injury and had 12 starts going into 2011, six were at cornerback and six at safety.  That compares to Green, ranked 382.   J.T Floyd was ranked 815 and had started 10 games, Gray was ranked 771 and has 7 starts.   Both are athletically challenged (for division 1 corners).   As noted above, prior to 2011, Floyd was Mgoblog’s punching bag as one of our worst starting corners ever.   Unfortunately, 2020 Vincent Gray has since taken the title.   

Can a new coaching staff squeeze more out of Gray, like Mattison and company did in 2011?   Fixing the second cornerback problem is going to be one of several big challenges for Mike Macdonald as he inherits a group of players not ideally suited for his presumed, prefered system.    How he handles that challenge is going to go a long way in determining how this season turns out.

Challenging Gray is D.J. Turner.   Turner was ranked 400, and in his first two seasons has played mostly special teams.   While less experienced than Gray, he brings more athleticism to the position.   His hello post praised him as being versatile and smart and in high school played as much free safety as he did corner.  His 2011 doppleganger, Courtney Avery, was an unranked 3 star.   Avery was also athletic and smart (with a Standard offer).  He has the edge in experience with 5 starts.

On both the 2011 and 2021 teams, there were questions about who was next on the depth chart.   In 2011, the remaining depth consisted of, Terrance Talbot, a 988 ranked true sophomore, walkon senior Tony Anderson and 163rd ranked Blake Countess and a host of other lower rated freshmen: Raymon Traylor (610), Delonte Hollowell (955) and unranked Tamari Carter.

2021 includes sophomores Andre Seldon (161) and Darion Green-Warren (190), freshman Ja’den McBurrows (554).   Beyond that, we have a bunch of guys who have switched positions.  While we have not heard much about Seldon and Green-Warren, true freshman were probably more impacted by the covid craziness than others.   This is particularly true of Seldon who missed time with Covid.   Can Coach Clinkscale turn one of these options into a viable number 2 corner?   I am cautiously optimistic that with the options the coaching staff has to work with, cornerback is going to turn out better than most think.



 

MGoStrength

August 7th, 2021 at 8:30 AM ^

I don't know what it is about the beginning of the year, but for some reason there are always several guys that start who don't start later in the year.  BVS, Vastardis, & Milton started at the beginning of last year.  This happens every year.  I don't know if these are just hard workers in practice that the coaches want to reward, but it always seems like there are a few guys who are inserted in the starting lineup that lack the physical upside that don't wind up as starters as the season wears on.

Personally, I like Seldon too.  He had Covid last year and didn't have much of an opportunity to play.  He's undersized, but talented and fast.  I think he can play this year.

cobra14

August 7th, 2021 at 9:04 AM ^

A True Freshman is a different ball game(more of trust issue with a coach) but starting upper classmen who won’t get it done is another story. Sorry we have seen Vastridis(sp) play multiple times at center and he isn’t it. Yet he has legit chance of starting again. Jess Speight isn’t it yet he is going to play a lot(you could argue depth concerns with this one) 

So I think Harbaugh goes the old Bo route and gives the Juniors and seniors first crack. I think that way is a tired old school way of thinking. 

 

 

JonnyHintz

August 7th, 2021 at 9:32 AM ^

Hmm no I still think it’s more that players tend to develop over time. Not being ready at the start of the year and having the lightbulb go on during the season happens quite often. Development doesn’t just happen during the off-season. 
 

As for players like Vastardis playing and “not being it,” that’s not really relevant. Is he the best current option or not? Whether someone else will be better further down the line doesn’t impact who should play today. 

BroadneckBlue21

August 7th, 2021 at 10:20 AM ^

Unless people are going to review the starting lineups for all opponents at start and end of the year for comparison, then all of the answers revolve solely around one’s personal feelings on the state of the program and the coaches we love or hate.

I could easily agree with you on Don Brown not knowing talent at LB. he seemed to have squandered many high level recruits and had them transfer—yet he still had the smarts to start Bush early. With McGrone, he had Ross starting over him and needed the injury to see Cam unleashed. 

No coach is perfect, but certainly some position coaches and coordinators on every staff have biases towards their guys.

If Andrel Anthony plays early like Roman did and Ronnie did, is that because WR coaches are dumb to start their guys over higher rated recruits at their positions? Harbaugh talks AA more than any other freshmen WR. If AA doesn’t perform with chances, is that because the coach was bad at evaluating the talent? 

Was Zach better than Hassan and Blake? 

Certainly, the Glasgows all played over actual recruits, so was the coaching staff wrong there, since those Glasgows all made NFL rosters? 

When a guy on the 2-deep outperforms the starter, how is that a systemic flaw of the entire coaching staff, or even that coach? 

We have had many early season matchups with ND in which they were breaking in new starters that ultimately didn’t last the entire season.

Some coaches are better at it, some are luckier to have more talent (Bama with WRs). I don’t think the entire coaching staff is blind or “bad.” Surely, this is a staff that offered Olave and wanted him, while he was a last minute OSU push. 

The fact that this team has been getting players drafted attests to them not being all deficient. Flawed, with weaker coaching evaluators, sure.

Hopefully, the changes made on both sides will improve on those weaknesses with rotations.

This is the first year Harbaugh and staff have been openly praising certain players and attaching actually PT to their praise. Mazi, Andrel, and Donovan—Harbaugh has explicitly sent the media messages that these guys will play. I cannot recall Jim being this specific with individual expectations.

I prefer this openness to the submarine—trying to “hide” behind media silence and vague praises—I hope those days are done. 
 

 

Gentleman Squirrels

August 7th, 2021 at 8:31 AM ^

There’s never really been question that there’s talent in the CB room. The problem is that, besides maybe Green, virtually all of them are unproven. I think most of us are hope that Turner wins the job over Gray because Turner will bring more athleticism/speed than Gray. As for being more technically sound, I hope clinkscale is improving that for all our DBs. We need the depth to be ready to go

Gentleman Squirrels

August 7th, 2021 at 9:34 AM ^

You also have to consider that the people behind them haven't shown anything because they were blocked by the likes of Hill, Thomas, Lewis, and Long. Don't get me wrong, I wish someone had stepped up last year (besides maybe Green). But the rest of them were basically freshman playing in a defense that didn't have a cohesive identity because of the man/zone catastrophe

MaizeBlueA2

August 7th, 2021 at 2:05 PM ^

Imagine using tackles as a measuring stick for a CB.

Yes, Long played as a RS Freshman...in 11 games, he had 2 picks. As a Freshman. 

Who on the team can say that in this DB room?

Lavert Hill played as a freshman...with Clark, Strib and Lewis ahead of him.

Who on the team can say that in this DB room? These guys don't have anyone as good as Lewis, or late in the career Clark and Strib ahead of them.

In Hill's 2nd year? He played in 9 games.

Are we really going to do this? Both guys saw game action early in their careers when we had All-B1G talent ahead of them. We have guys who can't see meaningful playing time with dudes getting TORCHED by MSU freshman WRs ahead of them. Stop it.

Maybe they'll be better, I hope so. But 2nd year Long and Hill were already better than anyone on this current roster (as of the end of last season).

AlbanyBlue

August 7th, 2021 at 2:48 PM ^

This is an excellent post that illustrates why the CB room under Brown was such an issue. So, on the one hand, the idea that players couldn't pass starters that often got crushed does not bode well for the room as a whole. That said, there's a good possibility that a wholesale change to more of a zone emphasis -- with coaches that can effectively teach it now -- could lead to quick improvement in itself. 

TL;DR -- I can see the possibility for improvement. Therefore, I am hopeful, though not convinced.

Qmatic

August 7th, 2021 at 9:02 AM ^

I’m nearly 100% confident the scheme alone will make the CBs look much better this year. Luckily we have two good safeties we can rely on in the back end. 

It really makes you wonder how good Don Brown was. He went from Lewis, Stribling, and Clark to Long, Hill, and Ambry. The fact he didn’t play Ambry (probably the fastest player on the team) at nickel in the 2018 OSU game shows that maybe he struck gold as a DC as opposed to finding gold

MaizeBlueA2

August 7th, 2021 at 9:16 AM ^

That's a lot of words for a CB room that can be described as "below average with the potential to be serviceable."

There is no mystery with that group.

Ed: OL and WR...maybe TE.

Those are the groups that have the widest range of could be pretty bad to...could be one of the best groups we've seen in awhile.

MaizeBlueA2

August 7th, 2021 at 2:24 PM ^

That's actually pretty interesting to think about...what's the "reasonable variance" (I think I made that term up) for each positon group. Bias aside.

Awful, below average, average, above average, good, elite.

Obviously all positions rely on other positions, but all we can judge is what we see.

QB: below average to above average (...I think McNamara starts and has a solid/above average season...Shea Patterson with fewer weapons)

RB: average to good (for me, this group has the least amount of variance of any on the team...it will be good unless the OL is below average or awful)

WR: below average to good (my heart says above average, my head says average)

TE: average to elite (I see them right in the middle...tons of potential, above average overall with some "good" games)

OL: below average to good (in "believe it when I see it mode," hence the variance, but I actually think they'll be good)

DL: below average to above average (not counting Hutchinson...praying they'll be above average, confidence level: 2)

LB: average to good (next to RB, the next group I'm most sure about...this group will be good this year)

CB: awful to average (DL and CB, the two most import on the team - get average out of both and this will be a solid group...if both suck, .500 here we come)

S: average to elite (all depends on Hawkins, a lot of spring hype) 

outsidethebox

August 8th, 2021 at 8:57 AM ^

When I peruse this roster I am, in general, very optimistic. I believe if Cade stays healthy the QB room has a ceiling that is quite high-high enough to win every scheduled game...Bowman adds a nice floor. The RBs are solid-we will see if Edwards adds an elite component. The Michigan WRs have been so hamstrung by excruciating QB play but, here, the actual talent/potential is very high. I see the TEs as problematic on the one hand-but they only need to be serviceable in the modern offense. I actually believe the OL has very high to elite potential and could be the greatest difference-maker group on this team. I believe the DL will be good and function well above the fans' hand-wringing expectations. The LBs are "who the hell knows"...wide, wide variability here. The CBs are concerning-can somebody please match the talent with a scheme that supports them!!! The safeties are fine and if the staff can figure out how to utilize the great talent that is Dax and wreak havoc on the back end they can be elite. 

My personal story declares that coaching is profoundly connected to successful team play. Can this staff put the pieces of this puzzle together remains the most pressing question. This coaching deck has been, significantly, reshuffled. Maybe this is the year...the roster talent is there.

BlueSky

August 7th, 2021 at 10:43 AM ^

Agree that there is talent in the CB room.  I like Turner's high school film, nice athleticism and instincts.  Green and Turner could be a good starting duo.

MaizeBlueA2

August 7th, 2021 at 2:28 PM ^

IMO Turner is the key to the whole thing.

Green has the potential to be a late career Jeremy Clark, maybe a Stribling level corner at BEST. Probably more likely a notch below them.

Gray is serviceable at best.

Turner is a wildcard along with McBurrows. Turner could be just another CB or he still has the potential, IMO, to be the guy. A bonafiide #1, 2nd day draft pick type.

Not predicting it, but if that happens, Green is a solid #2 and we're rolling. If Turner is no better than Gray...we're fucked.

 

WesternWolverine96

August 7th, 2021 at 2:33 PM ^

Aren't we also expected to play more zone coverage this year?

 

I just mention it because it may also change the dynamics of who starts.... it also means we may have a step jump in improvement (by year's end) based upon the scheme alone