Ah... The stigma attached to soccer...
I played soccerthrough college, and most the games I played were gritty and hard fought. Unfortunately this is why most Americans think soccer is a girly-girl sport. Maybe perception is closer to reality than I'd like to believe. We already saw the dive to send Kaka off and numerous other embellishments in the WC.
FIFA needs to do something about the diva mentality of some of these guys. I thought it was the bodybuilders who lost their stones, not the soccer players...
I still play soccer in a mens league but I think the North American style is much better than the europen style (even if we don't beat them regularly). We rarely see dives and people are strong on the ball. It is similar in hockey as well. At least in the past, europeans were notorious for diving. Just different styles I guess.
I still play indoor, and everybody plays hard in our league, but I have played with a few fusbol fairies in my time. The toughest league I was in was a Mexican league during my off season at college. My roommates (and teammates) were both Mexican, and I was one of only a few white guys in this league. There were stands clearing brawls, police escorts, and all sorts of crazy stuff at those games. Haha, there was Mexican tuba music blaring in the background at all the games too. Fun times...
their leagues and national team play what i would consider one of the roughest brands of the sport.
I played Sunday League in London for some years and that was completely team/situation dependent. The pickup games i get here in SF these days have lots of Mexicans and they are tough both on and off the ball, the South Americans are a bit more restrained.
I think they should allow more substitutions. Tired players are more inclined to dive and spend an extra minute rolling around on the ground playing up their injury while they catch their breath
I just think there should be more Rooney's and less Ronaldo's. In most cases, the hooligans are tougher than the players...
Not to mention that you'd probably see more goals scored late in games if more substitutes were allowed. I've never really understood the rationale for allowing only three subs when teams carry 23-man rosters. At the least, they should allow an extra sub or two when games go into extra time.
It's just boring to watch
Amen, brutha.
I think American Football is more exciting to watch even though there is more "down time." Every snap can create a scoring play whereas a lot of time in soccer is just spent passing the ball around trying to build a play up.
My friends and I for years have joked about how guys tumble down "like they were shot by an elephant gun."
The sniper visual is priceless!
the greatest soccer gif ever. And I like the Italian team. Well done.
In basketball if a guy flops it's the lead story on SportsCenter and the other coach goes on a rant bitching about the guy who flopped and how "butch league" such a move is. The players and coaches essentially ridicule and call out such a "puss" move, which in turn, keeps such "cheating" to a bare minimum.
In soccer.... "it's part of the game".
You're thinking of the WNBA
Ha! Nice catch
But even "Bush League" could be considered WNBA...
Is that for manly acting people?
When Shaq once tried to flop, huge deal, mainly cuz Shaq fought it his whole career.
Euro guys like Vlade, Ginobli, Varejao (I know he's from south america) do it all the damn time... and often get the calls
I think it's crap in either sport. The worst for me is in BBall when a 170lb guard "knocks down" a 270lb center... that's what's ridiculous to me
...is from South America too. Argentina.
Just saying.
I think that most of the world plays euro rules (not NBA) ball, just like in the olympics, South american countries included. I think they play the same style, and I'll group them all
I see almost as ,any dives in basketball or embelishment in general I guess. A lot of athletes could have been great actors. May have made for better movies.
Some guys get more calls than others
What about Euro guys like Bill Laimbeer?
hahahaha..
Are Fisher, Paul Pierce, Raja Bell, Wade, Artest and the whole Duke team from Europe? Because they flop almost as much as the guys you mentioned...
You probably don't watch a lot of basketball...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz0LZB2cv8s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J_ZA_KdcnE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSgggXQyvn8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aySGUzzxjGE
As you mentioned, players flop in basketball to draw fouls. Wideout's over emphasize being interfered with to draw flags. Hockey players are occasionally known to exagerate. It happens significantly more in soccer but soccer is a little bit different of an animal than the NBA, NFL, and NHL. Soccer is so wide spread that the best players in the world are not condensed to one league. Same thing for the referees. If there was one world premier league that attracted the top players and officials, and if this league received the media attention of our other major leagues, I think the dives would get nipped.
that in other sports, a little dive is generally just to see if you can draw a foul. In soccer, the players tend to flail around like they've just been stabbed.
Just as a casual observer during this world cup, it seems like the refs regularly make calls very late (and poorly for that matter), but I wonder if they flop around for so long because these awful officials sometimes give in and say, "OK, I guess it was a foul."
In reference to the ref's, I haven't found that there are many late calls. In soccer the referee has the ability to allow a team to play "the advantage" and if the foul doesn't result in the team who committed the foul to gain an advantage he can allow them to play on. Sometimes this will take a few seconds and if the team subsequently gains an advantage only after a few seconds the referee can call the foul at that time.
I haven't seen many instances where the ref simply takes too long for no reason to make a call. I have, however, seen many instances where the ref is tricked into making a call because of a dive. On a field that size with one referee it is bound to happen though.
As I said, I am not really a soccer fan, so I did not know about the whole 'advantage' thing. Thanks for the info. Now and can be slightly less aggrevated when I watch a 2 hour match just to see it end in a tie.
The calls come so late because in soccer there is something called advantage. I think its one of the greatest rules in sport. If a foul is commited, but the team that was fouled has the advantage, the call is not made and the game continues. For instance, on a breakaway, if the defender fouls the forward, but the forward continues on with the ball and has a chance to score, the ref doesn't call anything. Because of the advantage call, a lot of times the ref is waiting a few moments to see who has the advantage after a foul before calling anything.
The flopping and acting are ridiculous, but flopping happens in all sports. The acting tends to be a lot worse and more over the top in soccer at times. As was said above, different leagues and cultures have a different amount of diving.
I think one of the reasons you see more diving and acting in soccer is becuase of the ease at which a person can be ejected. By making it seem like a foul was more egregious, a player can cause another to get a yellow or red card. If it works, it is understandble that a player would try it. The refs just have to be quicker to give out yellows for diving and acting. It happened several times in that youtube video posted by the OP.
any different than a delayed penalty in hockey?
Sounds like the exact same thing.
In hockey the call will come eventually whereas in soccer, if the team that was fouled retains possession for more than about 10 seconds the "advantage" runs out and the play will go uncalled.
If it was a cardable offense the player will still get the card when the play stops but the team that was fouled will not get a free kick.
Football also has delayed penalties. Just about every sport I know of has delayed penalties. The main difference is that in almost all other sports the ref has to signal the advantage where as in soccer they tend to play a lot more fast and loose with things. It also makes evaluating the calls by the refs much more difficult. Soccer also tends to be one of the few sports where a ref doesn't have to signal or remark on the actual foul committed and who committed it.
FIFA really needs to clamp down on the refs. As you said a lot of the flopping happens because players are trying to sell things into yellow or red cards, but the reality is that granting of cards and color of cards is by rule independent of the result of the foul if in fact a foul actually occured. Cards are by rule supposed to be issued based on action, not result.
The other problem is that fouls in the box result in penalty kicks. There is tremendous incentive for a player to flop and try to draw a call there. But then there is the problem of refs being so gunshy about calling penalties that far more contact goes on in the box than anywhere else. Some kind of a lesser penalty option needs to be out there, to discourage minor contact without practically gifting a goal to one team.
The Laws already account for this with the indirect free kick. The limitations on awarding of an indirect free kick are pretty much none existent. So far I don't think I've seen or heard of an indirect being issues in the WC though I haven't been able to see/hear every game.
The refs propensity for giving a penalty everytime someone goes down in the box without entertaining the thought of an indirect free kick is a bit odd. It isn't just in the WC either. I rarely see it in any professional league.
I honestly think that if one only watched professional league/international play that it would be quite possible to be totally ignorant that there was such things as the indirect free kick. I really don't understand why they don't give more of them. One of the reason they are in the game is to handle a lot of the grab assing that occurs with things like set plays etc and just general dangerous play.
It is hard to be clear how many they give from 35 yards or greater away from goal because they never signal anything anyway. But the lack of them given within shooting range is a bit mind boggling.
I forgot about the indirect free kick. Referees need to call it more often, though. It seems like the vast majority of the time, contact results in a penalty kick or nothing.
There are very specific things that you may reward an indirect free kick for, just as there are very specific things you may reward a direct kick for.
Indirect (Non-penal/Technical):
- Offsides
- Obstruction
- Dangerous play (non-contact - if there's contact, it's direct)
- Goalkeeper restrictions (can't pass back to goalie's hands, etc)
Direct (Penal):
- Pushing
- Holding
- Charging
- Handling
- Spitting, kicking, striking, tripping, jumping
Fouls always fall into one of these bullets. Referees cannot give an indirect kick because they think the contact was not serious enough for a direct kick. If there was contact, other than obstruction, it's a direct kick in nature to something listed above.
Furthermore, these fouls must then be quantified as "careless," "reckless," or "serious foul play." Careless fouls simply result in FKs. Reckless fouls result in yellow cards. Fouls considered serious foul play result in red cards.
Indirect kicks in the box are still relatively easy to score. One guy taps it and the second blasts it top shelf just over the wall. I'd guess they're 50-50.
Also, there isn't much discretion in the Laws as to whether to award direct or indirect. An indirect kick is only to be given for "obstruction" (which does not rise to the level of kicking, tripping, holding, pushing, or striking an opponent, as those are direct-kick offenses), dangerous play which is not otherwise a foul, interfering with the goalie when he has the ball in his hands, offsides, violation of the back-pass rule, or when play is stopped solely to hand out a card. Almost any physical-contact foul is a direct kick, and therefore a PK if in the area.
I'd say baseball must be the only real sport then, but yeah, faking hit by pitches. I've seen some great ones before.
As more parks get HD replay boards. After all, a guy doesn't want to be shamed when the replay shows it quite obvious that he was never touched.
Perhaps my sarcasm detector isn't working, but I've been playing, watching, and umpiring baseball most of my life and I think I could probably count on my right hand the number of times I've seen someone fake being hit by a pitch at any level of the sport.
Occasionally you get guys who pretend that they got hit in the foot, but it never involves flailing around.
I also found this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GigaJ2_MH5Q
You'll notice his teammates aren't even speaking to him as he gets ejected because, frankly, nobody wants a guy who does that on their team.
Hockey players are occasionally known to exagerate.
And every single one that does is looked down upon by the player's peers
misunderstood what I was getting at. No where in my post was I suggesting that I condone flopping in any sport.
The point I was trying to make is that flopping isn't isolated to soccer players. However, in the NBA, NFL, NHL and MLB, foul play and dirty players are going to get called out. The media will see to it and, as you point out, so will a player's peers. Soccer isn't scrutinized at the same level as our 4 major sports and so it is understandable that flopping is more rampant in soccer.
The problem is this (and they just mentioned it in the RSA - FRA game):
You're not going to get the real calls if you're not willing to sell it. If you get tripped and impeded but don't go down, the ref just isn't going to make the call.
Because of forward progress and letting the players "play on" with the advantage. Which is why there's a lot of acting in soccer. (This is not condoning bush league bs like the flop by the CIV guy who got Kaka double yellow'd)
It should be the same as hockey and the team gets a penalty whenever they gain possession of the ball, regardless if it takes ten minutes to do that.
Also, as you said about refs letting calls go if the player stays on his feet and retains possession or even worse, gets hammered and falls down but his team retains possession. A penalty should be a penalty no matter what (or foul in soccer circumstances).
Some people get reputations too. When Wayne Rooney goes down almomst every ref in the world will blow the whistle immediately. C. Ronaldo on the other hand often really gets mugged but most refs are skeptical (and rightfully so) when he goes to ground.