OT: MGoRelocation Advice & Questions
Hey everyone,
Background:
So my wife and I have been living in Orange County, California for about four years now, renting a 2-bed apartment that's been alright, but the rent is pretty steep ($5k/month – ugh). Because we are both pretty tired of watchinig $50-60k+ per year go to our apartment company and to never be seen again, we're starting to think it's time to buy a place of our own.
Unfortunately, finding anything under $900k, even for just a starter home, is extremely tough. Even in not-so-great neighborhoods like Santa Ana (where we are now) will cost you $850k minimum, and if you want something in a decent area, you are looking at $1.5M when its all said and done. Also, now that we're both working from home and need a 3rd bedroom + some space for our 16-month-old, it's getting a bit more more urgent that we find a house and finally say goodbye to the apartment life.
About Us:
Before we moved to California, we lived in a few different places like San Antonio and the suburbs of Philadelphia. I'm from Wisconsin, and my wife is from South Texas. Our tastes are pretty different due to liking what wasn't available to us growing up – she loves tall trees, the fall and winter season, and the idea of lakeside living, while I'm more into palm trees, sunny weather, growing my citrus trees, and trying to golf in mid-December. However, I am not opposed to the cold weather really.
We've taken some trips before and after the pandemic to quite a few places, including:
- Palm Springs
- Denver
- Salt Lake City
- Detroit
- Minneapolis
- Rochester
- Madison
- Milwaukee
Places like Minneapolis and Detroit (especially Ann Arbor) caught our attention in particular. They offer the places she likes to shop at, while also giving her a lot of the outdoor stuff she likes as well. Both seemed nice and/or up-and-coming (Detroit), but its been a while and stuff changes.
Questions:
So, we're reaching out to you folks on this forum, many of whom are from the Midwest. We want to know:
- Weather – what's it like where you are?
- City vibes – what's the atmosphere like in these places?
- Recommended suburbs or towns – any suggestions?
- Other things to consider – anything important that we might be overlooking?
- Current gripes or concerns – what should we keep an eye out for now and in the future?
Thanks for your thoughts – we're looking forward to hearing your opinions!
- Ann Arbor
- Ann Arbor
- Ann Arbor
Is Ann Arbor much cheaper than California these days?
I live out West but have a sibling in Ann Arbor.
Ann Arbor is significantly less expensive compared to CA.
In SoCal, housing starts at $800/sf. In the townships surrounding Ann Arbor, it is $250/sf. I traded a 1000 sf condo in San Diego for 3000 sf/5br/multiple acres just outside of AA city (10 min drive to downtown). I am one of four California "refugee" families in our neighborhood! From a housing cost perspective, it isn't a question.
Ann Arbor is only expensive by midwest standards. It is CHEAP compared to the coasts.
...but the townships aren't Ann Arbor. That is why I can afford to live in one.
Actual in Ann Arbor ain't California expensive, but it's like Portland expensive.
The townships or Ypsi? Can be cheap.
April 30th, 2024 at 10:18 PM ^
Welcome home
Ann Arbor certainly. But aside from that take a look at Grand Rapids. Not too big but not small. Friendly folks. Great outdoor activities a short drive away.
If you two really want to switch things up try Bozeman, Montana. Very Ann Arbor like in a smaller package.
Bozeman is great, but housing costs have risen out of sight. Livingston is a very nice town and not too far from Bozeman.
Missoula not as expensive and also a university town (as is Bozeman).
On the subject of relocation and its various aspects, and being aware that there are many fluid variables, would also encourage original poster to consider the politics of the state and location.
Yes! MT, ID, UT are red AF. I’d say Minneapolis is great. Close to a major international airport, close to Chicago, close to Wisconsin, seasons, lakes, and you can vacation in the palms.
currently live in denver (have been living on the front range since 2010) and grew up in rochester (ny). happy to chat with you about either of those places if you wanna email me at me at daveheal dot com. if you move to rochester you can buy a house that would suit you and probably a small lake house on the finger lakes for the price of what you'd pay for a single house in denver proper. but i love it out here and won't be moving back home unless something catastrophic happens. you can still golf in denver in the winter sometimes too :)
which rochester?
The Finger Lakes/Rochester are in upstate NY.
I grew up in the Rochester in Western NY. If the OP is talking about Rochester MN or Rochester MI I have nothing to add.
Rochester NY has a couple of things going for it - housing is absurdly cheap, suburban schools, particularly on the east side, are very well regarded. Traffic isn't that bad - the highway system is pretty well developed for the population size and density. For its size, there are a fair number of cultural institutions (Geva theater, the Art Museum, the Eastman house, etc.) and fun AAA sports (the red wings, who play in a great AAA ballpark, and the amerks). There are outdoorsy things to (lake ontario, the finger lakes, which are criminally underrated imho and letchworth park) so long as you don't mind them being flat-lander things to do. The downsides - weather (cold, long, dark winters; hot, humid summers), an aging population as a result of a lot of young people moving out over the last 3 decades, and distance from "major" metropolitan centers (NY is ~4.5 hours driving); air travel is limited to flying to a hub and then flying on from there. Taxes are suboptimal.
I lived in Chicago for a long time, but I think others have covered it. I know a ton of people who love Philly, but for my money I'd move to Ann Arbor or Lake Placid (the latter has great outdoor options more or less year round and you're a couple of hours from Montreal).
April 30th, 2024 at 11:20 PM ^
Shouldn't your username be WhiteHotandBlue?
Can't recommend the Minneapolis/St Paul area enough. I grew up in Michigan, but now have been in the Twin Cities for ~15 years. Everyone here loves the outdoors and are out and about year around. The difference (IMO) between MN and MI is that Minnesotans really embrace the winter - there are so many activities, festivals, etc. I didn't feel that in Michigan.
You still get all 4 major sports teams coming through town and all Big Ten Sports. Cost of living is reasonable, though higher than pre-pandemic.
tennesse. no state taxes
If you're looking to move to Nashville area, prices are no longer that much cheaper than California - Williamson County has some of the highest average home prices in America now, easily crossing over the $1m mark.
tennesse. no state taxes
Good call. Also living in a van down by the river gets you out of having to pay property taxes.
You mean income tax? Certainly there are state taxes. TN sales tax is 9% I believe.
Combined with alcohol tax, it can easily hit 15-20% if you’re drinking in some places.
You can be 3 hours from the beach and mountains in NC but it seems everyone is moving here and housing is starting to reflect that. Still a bargain compared to CA
Hey, just moved to Raleigh, where do you live?
April 30th, 2024 at 10:53 PM ^
Triad area/Winston
Lived in Madison for a couple decades. Great city, like Ann Arbor but bigger and with lakes and lots of bike paths. Happy to answer questions
Currently in Grosse Pointe after moving back from Boston for similar reasons, ie. everything was expensive as hell.
I'm not from Metro-Detroit originally but we were going to end up around here no matter what, so I looked for a few things.
- Walkability - going from Boston to suburban sprawl and strip malls would have given me depression so we had to find somewhere with general walkability that wasn't restricted to the culdesac you lived in. That meant Plymouth, Royal Oak, Pleasant Ridge/Ferndale, Grosse Pointe(s) among inner-core Detroit suburbs (Plymouth isn't really inner-core). Once you get inside of Grosse Pointe, there is 1 road that is over 25mph (but that hasn't stopped high schools from flying 60mph and getting into accidents). Every street has sidewalks and it's mostly a grid so you can always find your way.
- Downtowns / shopping / restaurants - similar reasoning as above. Wanted to leave our car behind, walk a few blocks, and grab a bite to eat or cup of coffee. Downtown Plymouth has a lot of options as does Royal Oak. Each Grosse Pointe community has their own downtown as well that have locally owned coffee shops and restaurants. Not a lively nightlife, but enough.
- Good schools - we now have a child and were always planning on having one so wherever we ended up we wanted to have good schools if it were somewhere we settled into for decades. So Plymouth, Berkley, Grosse Pointe. GP is navigating some schooling issues, but overall is still a top 10 district in the state.
- Beauty - This kind of goes with 1 and 2, but we didn't want to live in a place with McMansions and cookie cutter new builds. Grosse Pointe is an old (by Michigan standards) community. Dominated by brick houses from the late 1800s (Grosse Pointe Park) all the way up to the 1960s (Grosse Pointe Woods). We live in a 1930s brick colonial that is just nice to look at. You run into old house problems, but overall the houses look nice. And the streets are lined with 80 year old trees that form a nice canopy. We're on Lake St. Clair and have parks along the lakeshore with public pools, tennis courts, pickleball courts, and general communal spaces.
- Access to Detroit - we can get to downtown via 94 or Jefferson in ~20 minutes so we can go to games or different restaurants easily.
- Safety - We border East Detroit on 2 sides but GP is very safe.
The downsides of Grosse Pointe:
- We're secluded over here. It's very easy to just stay in Grosse Pointe because getting anywhere is a pain in the ass. You have to get to 94 to then go anywhere, which can take 15 minutes driving through East Detroit in some cases. Then, once you get to 94 you have to actually drive it and it's pretty bad.
- We don't have big box stores. If you need to grab something quick other than groceries, you're in a rough spot. Not Target or Meijer. The closest ones are in Roseville which takes a good 20+ minutes to get to. There is a Costco over there too thankfully. We also have relatively expensive gas I think for a similar reason.
- The tree-lined streets are pretty, but also prone to take out above-ground power lines. We lost power 4 times last year, including a 4-day stretch after an almost tornado ripped through. I bought a generator this winter to deal with it.
- It's kind of stepford-y over here. Thinly-veiled and not thinly-veiled racism mixed with classism as well.
- Old houses mean old house problems. You could get a house that has been updated and is georgous inside and out. Or you could get one that hasn't been updated since 1968. Leaky basement, old plumbing. That kind of stuff.
I've mentioned a few others, but if you're looking for similar things that we were, I'd recommend you look at Plymouth/Royal Oak/Pleasant Ridge/Berkley. Then maybe Northville/Birmingham/Bloomfield (expensive) or Dearborn/Southfield/Ferndale/Clawson (a little less nice).
1 more downside. The occasional hit men and assassins that come through town for their high school reunion.
Huge miss on my part. Gotta take a family vacation during reunions just in case.
Ten years man!!!!
-You're a psychopath...
-No, psychopaths kill for no reason. I kill for MONEY!
Michfan777, how stable are your WFH situations (you, wife)? If they're rock-solid, congratulations. I'd say make a spec list and go crazy. Everything is on the table.
I'm in the Traverse City area and there are definitely WFH people around.
https://michiganscreativecoast.com/create/careers-industries/remote/
Longtime Minneapolis resident here, born and raised, owned a house here for 10 years.
Weather: No doubt, it gets COLD. It's getting better on average on account of climate change, this year we had multiple 50 and 60 degree days between December and March and very little snow, but cold snaps where it hits -20 F are still common. I prefer cold to heat, personally. You can bundle up and still go have fun outside, we have outdoor ice skating, broomball leagues, cross country skiing, fat biking trails, a handful of small downhill skiing hills, etc. It's what you make of it, like most places, but if you need warmth and lots of sunshine in your life, Minnesota isn't going to work out.
City: Again it's what you make of it. A California budget is going to go a LONG way here, 900k will get you at least a modest single family home in any neighborhood. The vibes are a little weird right now, the cities experienced an uptick in crime and unrest through the pandemic and George Floyd protests. It's mostly receded, and most neighborhoods were never affected in any meaningful way, but the downtowns in particular are still figuring out what they want/need to be in the post-pandemic era, and there's a lot of churn in the local restaurants and shops as they adjust to new patterns.
Suburbs/nearby towns: Check out Edina, Hopkins, or St. Louis Park if you want to be close to town. Maple Grove or Minnetonka are a little further out. On the East side, Stillwater is a charming old river town on the Wisconsin border, Hudson WI is just a but further.
Overall, I love it here. My wife and I have our 8 year old daughter in a school just a block away. We both work from home, and there's great biking infrastructure and good public transport, so we were able to drop down to one car a few years ago, and we just bought a cabin on a lake up north late last year.
Good luck with your search!
The worst weather I had in Minneapolis was 95° and 99% humidity
Yeah, it can get hot here in the summer too. That's what the lakes are for!
I heard they invented the double-barrel shotgun in Minnesota b/c the first round often didn't bring the mosquito down.
Do you like/want mountains? Then Denver/Salt Lake City are great (plus the weather gets cold but usually not for long) - assuming you don't mind the lack of humidity. Minneapolis is a great outdoors place but you better be committed to enjoying cold weather. Ann Arbor is a fun town but the weather, on average, is mediocre as there are too many cloudy days. Might as well go all in and head to Seattle (which has proper mountains). I am personally planning to head south at some point but some folks hate hot humid conditions so ymmv. Best of luck!
Loved SLC but it was the only place I'd ever tasted air before. During the winter the pollution stays in the valley until a storm comes in and pushes it over the mountains. It was pretty gross and was hell on my wife's asthma.
Now we live in Calgary and the wildfires during the summer having me tasting air again... ugh.
My wife and I spent the past 10 years thinking about this while we lived in San Francisco. After creating too many spreadsheets, pros and cons lists, talking to people, etc... We finally moved to Raleigh in North Carolina last Fall. So far loving it. Easy winters, summers not as great but bearable, 4 seasons, easy commuting to NY/Miami, low taxes, low cost of living, nice people, fast growing and highly educated city, lots of job opportunities. Airport is so easy and surprisingly a lot non-stop destinations including abroad. Pretty diverse population also. We moved here without knowing a soul and have already met some great people (mostly through our kid’s school). We also liked that it was kind of a swing state politically and not echo chamber.
We were also considering Austin and Denver as our finalists.
Double post
Highly recommend Minnesota. Not so much Minneapolis proper. Choose a suburb. Minneapolis and St. Paul are improving, but they are not yet what they were pre-Covid. Plus, the school systems are all much better in the suburbs (some are outstanding and almost all are top notch). Housing can get to over a million if you are hell bent on top notch areas and new builds, but I’ll say there are tons of options in the 600-900k range in great areas.
Minneapolis is great! I'm a product of the public schools here too, they're pretty good.
I have been in the Grand Rapids area (Detroit-area transplant) for over a decade now and absolutely love it. $900k will get you a VERY nice house out here.
- Weather - typically a lot of snow in winter, though this past one was quite mild. It's typical Michigan weather spring through fall.
- City vibes - GR is growing and getting some nice shiny toys built for us such as a new amphitheater that I believe will rival Pine Knob for largest in the state, therefore we expect to get some big acts coming through once it's built in 2026. Otherwise, we do get quite a few large acts at our other venues. For sports, we have minor league hockey (Red Wings affiliate) & basketball downtown (Nuggets affiliate) and baseball (Tigers affiliate, A ball) just north of town. For football, there is D2 Grand Valley (go Lakers) and they are really good and even won a few championships in the 2000s under Brian Kelly and his successor. We have quite a few breweries, hence our nickname "Beer City". The airport added a ton more terminal space and is SUPER nice.
- Recommended suburbs/towns - personally I would go with somewhere west of town, just to be closer to the lake. Hudsonville and Byron Center are really popping right now with new builds.
- Other things to consider - 3 hour drive to Michigan games is not the most ideal.
- Current gripes/concerns - nobody knows how to drive here and cops have stopped caring. The clouds in the winter can be a bit much.
EDIT: also Dutch people everywhere
I agree with Grand Rapids (population of 200k) area. Nice smaller airport. We live in small-town Saugatuck after 20 years in the Ann Arbor area which we loved. If your wife loves the water then nothing better than having a boat with access to Lake Michigan (except having friends with a boat). Holland is a growing town with more of your shopping basics and more options for different price ranges. Great options in the area for schools.
Atlanta. I currently live in the LA area (right next to the beach in Redondo Beach) and I will be moving out of LA later this year. I previously lived in Atlanta and loved my time there which is why I'm considering moving back there. Unfortunately I had to move to LA for a great career opportunity right before the pandemic.
Here's some reason why you & your spouse should consider the ATL:
- Cost of living: You can find a nice 2BR for $2.5K in some of the most desired neighborhoods (Old Fourth Ward, Inman Park, Buckhead, etc).
- Things to do: There's so much to do in the city. You can check out many live sporting events (I highly recommend Braves and ATL United games). A bunch of festivals that occur throughout the year. Also, great food scene with 2 very nice food halls located at Ponce City Market and Krog Street Market.
- Traffic/transportation/airport: Not going to lie traffic is pretty bad but ATL has pretty good public transportation especially compared to a city like LA. You can take so many direct flights from the ATL airport and as a result it's easier to travel across the country & internationally.
- Weather: It's pretty mild. There really isn't a winter but you do get a Fall season. It does get pretty humid in months of July and August.
- Suburbs: There's plenty of great suburbs to raise a family (Sandy Springs, Dunwoody, Alpharetta, Decatur, Roswell).
- Georgia HOPE scholarship: If you're planning on having kids, the state of Georgia funds a majority (this could 100%) tuition for secondary education at any college or university located in the state if certain academic requirements are met.
Beltline Trail: I had to mention this as it's one of the coolest things about the city. The city of Atlanta redeveloped old railroad tracks into a walking and biking trail that connects numerous neighborhoods. Alongside this manmade trail is a bunch of bars, restaurants, a grocery store and other points of interest.
We lived in the midwest for 25+ years and have been in Atlanta for ~ 15. We really like it here for a few reasons but I'll try and wrap them around your structure
- Weather – what's it like where you are? mild and short winters. Spring starts in February and Thanksgiving is usually in the 50's. It is also not unheard of to get 60/70 degree weather here and there in Dec/Jan but it can get cold. The city can't really deal with ice/snow so that's why the whole city shuts down for like 3 days when you get an ice storm in which happens in a more nasty fashion maybe once every 5 years
- City vibes – what's the atmosphere like in these places? Like most metro areas Atlanta is massive and spread out so you kind of have to localize it based on where you are. But - it's a big, diverse city with a lot to do
- Recommended suburbs or towns – any suggestions? Depends on what you are looking for - there are a lot of very attractive options in town; there is Decatur which is maybe a bit more bohemian; and then you tend to head north into places around Perimeter or into Marietta/Alpharetta/Roswell/Johns Creek or you can move to an even further ring in places like Cumming/Forsyth/Lake Lanier/Buford which is getting into some of the lakes. Metro Detroit has phenomenal lake living - Atlanta has a much smaller version of that but also has horse farm type places
- Other things to consider – anything important that we might be overlooking? 3 major universities in the city (GT, GSU, Emory) with Athens relatively close by; great medical centers; world's busiest airport so you can sort of get anywhere conveniently; about 5 hours from the Atlantic and the Gulf and Blue Ridge area of NC and into Mammoth Caves KY. Final Fours and World Cup and NCAA Title Games and Super Bowls come to ATL pretty frequently because the visitor/convention group is very good at making things like that happen. Atlanta also has a really diverse business community in terms of the industries represented by major employers (i.e. compare industries for Coke, Home Depot, UPS, Pulte, Chick-Fil-A, NCR, Delta, Southern Company, Newell, Genuine Parts, Porsche NA, Mercedes Benz NA, Georgia Pacific, Equifax, Global Payments, IHG, Cox Auto/Cox Communications, Mohawk Industries, Graphic Packaging, Arby's, MailChimp, RaceTrac etc.)
- Current gripes or concerns – what should we keep an eye out for now and in the future? Traffic sucks and so does the pollen. Prices are going up because inflation and high interest rates are a problem everywhere.
In Ann Arbor now and since you are obviously familiar, I would recommend. Have lived in Dallas and Chicago, neither of which I would move back to. As to the people recommending MN - that is on my short list of 'yes' destinations (Mrs. Jones has frequently hopped jobs, and I'm full time WFH). But Minneapolis stands out for another criteria you did not mention - air travel, since it's a Delta hub. Whether in the old days of my business career, or currently travelling just for enjoyment, being within easy reach of a major airline hub is really helpful. having to make connections to get anywhere from smaller airports just invites pain.
Agreed re: airline hub.
We've got family in Cleveland, and they have to take multiple flights to get anywhere.
We are traveling to Japan in a few weeks, and my friends from other states are surprised to hear we have a direct flight from DTW to Tokyo.
Your family in Cle must hate United, because it’s not hard to get a direct to major cities.
Could not disagree more on the airline hub thing. The only advantage the hubs have is that you can often take a flight later at night than you can from a spoke. Everything else is a negative — crowded, security can take forever, and prices are much higher than transiting the same city from a smaller airport.
If you’re unlucky enough to live in an airline’s hub, consider flying their competition — especially in places like MSP and DTW where DL essentially has its own terminal. I get through security in Detroit in 10 minutes because I’m normally not flying DL.