Questions for the Coaches / Former Players Here

Submitted by jcorqian on November 8th, 2020 at 8:27 AM

1.  Is the offensive game plan for MSU and Indiana actually drastically different than Minnesota (as it seems to me as a layperson), or it's actually similar but the defenses are simply taking the more "speed in space" elements away by alignment / strategy / whatever?

2.  Do we actually have a meritocracy?  After Gray's completely unnecessary PI on 3rd and 10 which would have been a stop with plenty of time left and down 10 points, how does he not come out?  Seems you have to let Turner or Perry or Seldon or DGW try.  It literally cannot be worse.  Again, my view as a layperson - or is there more too it?

As a sidenote, again I didn't see vast athletic deficiencies with our corners necessarily, they just can't seem to play their technique and stay in the right spots...  Something is mentally broken.

Thank you.

Hotel Putingrad

November 8th, 2020 at 8:50 AM ^

I just for the life of me don't understand why we can't throw the occasional screen pass. We used to do that a lot with De'veon and Fisch. And it seems like a good way to mitigate inexperience on the offensive line.

There was a second quarter check-down to Evans that netted 23 yards, and I thought to myself, "why don't we give Joe more efficient plays like that?"

Every time Corum catches the ball in space, something good happens, but yet they don't exploit that matchup. 

And I do really like Milton's moxie, but I swear he has to stop throwing into so much double coverage, especially deep.

On defense, there's just too much to fix in-season. Brown hasn't been the answer for awhile, but they really don't have any answers at corner, so I'm not sure that changing personnel matters.

Last night's Clemson-ND game was instructive. There were a ton of yards and points put up by both teams, but both also (and ND in particular with Hayes) were every so often able to make a key defensive play to force a punt or turnover. I haven't seen anything of the sort from us the past two weeks.

JTP

November 8th, 2020 at 9:19 AM ^

It’s pretty simple he should be fired, we are not firing a high school coach who is trying to pad his $40,000 income, we are firing a coach of a major college program who after buyout will be paid close to $60,000,00 in his 6 years, I’m not sure any arguments can be made in Jim’s favor the coaching is atrocious period. Make the change!

Fishbulb

November 8th, 2020 at 9:24 AM ^

Give Corum more opportunities to dust guys, and get Charbonnet more touches (not necessarily up the middle).  Mix in more jets.  Take at least one deep shot per quarter.  

I think Milton is about where he should be, given his experience.  5 new OL starters yesterday didn't do him any favors, though.  

Fishbulb

November 8th, 2020 at 9:20 AM ^

Not a former player or coach, but it appears the staff is leaning on Gray because he has the most experience and knows what he's supposed to do...he just can't do it.  Seems like they value that over a youngster who is more prone to a "left a guy wide open" bust as opposed to the "see if the QB can hit this guy with a 3 yard cushion" option they currently have as a reality.  

Corners with faults need to make up for it with another really good skill.  Morgan Trent was on the stiff side, but he was fast.  Jourdan Lewis is on the small side, but he is fast and had good technique.  Stribling had good technique.  Gray is slow and does not have good technique.  

 

blueheron

November 8th, 2020 at 10:44 AM ^

"... he has the most experience and knows what he's supposed to do...he just can't do it.  Seems like they value that over a youngster ..."

As someone whose memory extends back to the Schembechler era, trust me: This is a Michigan tradition. At the moment I'm thinking of the Mallory brothers (sorry, guys). Gamers, Michigan Men, but just limited athletically.

Carcajou

November 8th, 2020 at 1:20 PM ^

We're not in practice, or at meetings, but I suspect you are right. They may not have any other guys they feel they can put out there who can handle the various calls and adjustments and switches without risking major coverage busts and giving away easy TDs. At least Gray understands his assignment - he just hasn't been able to execute it.

Why is his technique not better? Hard to know if they simply haven't been working on things they should have, or whether what he's been doing  work with the receivers he's up against in practice and can't adjust to the superior skill of some of the receivers they have been facing, or what.

Carcajou

November 8th, 2020 at 1:20 PM ^

We're not in practice, or at meetings, but I suspect you are right. They may not have any other guys they feel they can put out there who can handle the various calls and adjustments and switches without risking major coverage busts and giving away easy TDs. At least Gray understands his assignment - he just hasn't been able to execute it.

Why is his technique not better? Hard to know if they simply haven't been working on things they should have, or whether what he's been doing  work with the receivers he's up against in practice and can't adjust to the superior skill of some of the receivers they have been facing, or what.

Catchafire

November 8th, 2020 at 9:39 AM ^

How about a simple lack of experience.  Most teams go through it that is true, but look at ND who has a 5th year QB or OSU and Fields.  Simply put we lack experience.  All of our senior WRs left.  

 

Bo Harbaugh

November 8th, 2020 at 10:25 AM ^

Year 6.  No excuse to have not built a stable program that can’t bear tras teams like MSU.

Not expecting us to be Bama with 5* sophomores waiting on the bench, but going from mediocre to crap because some good players opt out is the sign that you can build a good team for a year (when all the chips fall into place), but you have failed to build a program.

JH and staff have under-recruited and failed to build a program.  

Michigan Arrogance

November 8th, 2020 at 10:19 AM ^

I'm not interested in 2020. I get there are a few holdouts like chuckums who are willing to keep JH for 2021 b/c of 2 things as I can tell: COVID and the extreme youth on the team. Those are legit "yeah buts" IMO but my problem really comes down to 2019.

Ask yourself how many guys were drafted this past year? (and 2 years ago when we had 11 I think get drafted? but I'm not gonna litigate the entire 6 years). How much expereince AND talent did we have? At QB, OL, WR, LB, DE, Corner. Youngish and no depth at RB, DT and S but it's college - you can't have 3rd and 4th year players with depth at every position every year. 

Now ask yourself what the result was? 9-4. 3 blowout losses. Not only no contension for the CFP (which should no longer even be a reasonable metric at M anymore), but no real contension for the East or the B10. In year 5. With talent and depth all over the field and at kicker.

These problems we have in 2020 are not isolated and it's not as simple as "but recruiting" as many have (rightfully) brought up. This program cannot RETAIN players. Talented players that can contirbute to a successful B10 team. St. Juste (medical, but obviously they are making the wrong decisions there after him and the DT from 2 year ago went on to play). Soloman at Tenn. Singleton & Dwumfore @ Rutgers. Look at the Opt outs that failed to opt back in! We have a RS So. OT that will be going into the draft one way or the other - can't even get a RS JR year out of him. Peters loses job - xfers faster than you can say "no depth." DMC - ditto. God help this team if Milton gets hurt. LACK OF RETENSION is a FEATURE of the M program that should be counted against JH, and should NOT be considered a bug that mitigates JH's responsibility for a young team in 2020.

No point in discussing coordinators. This is bigger than coordinators. No point in discussing position coaches. Bigger than that. There's one simple correction M can make to fix all of these:

  1. Poor QB play and the poor decisions that led to the QB poor roster year in year out.
  2. Inability to produce anything close to a top 15 offense in today's CFB.
  3. Inability to recruit and RETAIN minimal depth at critical positions like DT and CB.
  4. Inability to create a gameplan that makes a competitive game against inferior talent like MSU and IU this year. IU is a legit 8-4  or 9-3 team this year so that loss is what it is, a loss to a more experienced and better FB team. The MSU loss (2 scores!) was a loss that should never happen.
  5. just can't complete for the division in any realistic fasion due to all of the above.

 

You know what that one fix is at this point. Don't talk about prep for next year when you KNOW we will lose an OT early to the draft, and BOTH DEs, who are the only redeeming players on this defense, save Dax Hill, who I'm sure would leave early for the draft if he could. The defense will not magically find more DTs, replacements for AA level DEs nor any CBs. "Wait for next year" arguements began and ended in 2018 in anticiaption for 2019.

IDK who the candidates are. Fleck and Fickle should be on the long list at the very least, but if M can't afford a buyout for a HC who has less than 18 months left on his contract, IDK what to say. 

 

Michigan Arrogance

November 8th, 2020 at 10:29 AM ^

agreed. I mean if there's 2 things that succinctly put it into perspective: 1) How many players has JH recruited to M that are STARTING FOR OTHER B10 teams, and 2) How many drafted players has M had in 2019 and 2017(?) and what was the result in those years prior? 

IDK what happened to change JHs demeanor after 2016 - if it was the game that broke him (the NCAA changing rules against his camps, the call againts OSU), a consious decision to tone it down after that, or some change in medication that is alleged by others. But there was some kind of personal circumstance that happened to JH b/c his passion certainly isn't what it was in 2015-16. Either way, I don't care. It's obviously over.

Catchafire

November 8th, 2020 at 11:03 AM ^

That's why you wait out the year instead of firing Jim F$&#&$ing Harbaugh.  No one would forget that and your just mounting even more pressure bon whichever idiot decides to coach here, because it will not be the guy you want.

After next year, all things are fair game and no one can say that Jim didn't get a fair shot at this.

RockinLoud

November 8th, 2020 at 11:12 AM ^

Except recruiting will completely tank with a lame duck coach and the next staff will be fucked in year 3 just like Harbaugh was in 2017. So if your goal is to set the program back even more, by all means go ahead and keep JH while not extending his contract. Or you can do the best thing for the long term and rip the band-aid off now.

Mongo

November 8th, 2020 at 10:59 AM ^

From a coaches perspective, too much youth is difficult to stitch together.  The veterans that know the system are like extra coaches but on the field, in the play.  They are critical in-game “coordinators”.  That is one reason they are so valuable.  Losing Ambry really hurt the DBs because he was a leader and talented.  

Blue Me

November 8th, 2020 at 11:28 AM ^

I have spoken to a number of players from the '97 team and they indicate the "meritocracy" is a joke and that Harbaugh plays favorites.

Their words, not mine ((ducks)).

abertain

November 8th, 2020 at 12:23 PM ^

Fair. It does seem like guys who work hard and are a bit older tend to get a way longer leash. I think 4 needs to taken off the field and replaced by Perry or Seldon. I mean, I don't think the coaches quit. Don Brown had Michigan in a lot of zone. Harbaugh was pumped for Gray when he got the PBU. However, the DT position is also a mess and Don Brown has gotten gashed all year in the 3-3-5. It seems like they should roll with 4-2-5, replace 4 and coach the hell out of DT. I think Kemp is a great rusher, but he was mauled in that second half. It's on the tape, which is what annoys me sometimes about the staff. Like BVS is a great option at FB, but he's not one of your best 11. 

As for offense, the game plan needed to test the edges more. Unlike a lot of people here, I think Haskins is Michigan's best back. I like the other three on passing downs, but I think Haskins runs angry and has pretty solid feet. But a lot of QB run and short throws attached to inside runs. I think the offense still has room to grow. I do think Michigan will be better at the end of the year, but that may mean something like 4-5. 

L'Carpetron Do…

November 8th, 2020 at 12:07 PM ^

I played one year of 8th grade football and then again for about a month my senior year, so I'm pretty legit.

But the one thing I remember hearing from coaches over and over again was: if you're in pass coverage, when your man turns his head to look for the ball, you turn your head and look for the ball. It seems so simple and almost every game now I see a defensive player not do this and either 1) fail to make a somewhat easy INT  2) give up a huge completion/TD or 3) get a PI flag (refs seem much more eager to throw a flag if you don't try to play the ball). This infuriates me. People like my father, grandfather, uncles, friends with much more football experience than I do - even announcers - have all always said this same thing: turn your head. Honestly, some of Gray's bad plays - the big TD by State last week - wouldn't have happened if he just found the ball.

That seems like the easiest part of pass coverage and yet no one does it (Jourdan Lewis actually used to do it very well).

Can someone explain?

MGoStrength

November 8th, 2020 at 12:33 PM ^

After Gray's completely unnecessary PI on 3rd and 10 which would have been a stop with plenty of time left and down 10 points, how does he not come out?  Seems you have to let Turner or Perry or Seldon or DGW try.

I'm a little surprised we haven't seen Seldon yet.  CB is not a hard position for a freshman to learn if he has the ability.  We heard his name a lot during the pre-season so combined with that, his recruiting profile, and the struggles with Gray, I'm surprised.  FWIW Perry and Turner did get a run and didn't fare any better.  I'd think we move Green to the boundary, let Seldon cover their #2, and let Hill handle the slot.  I'm also surprised we haven't heard peep about Quinten Johnson.  I know he took a medical RS last year with an ankle injury, but he should be healthy this year.  Hawkins hasn't exactly looked great either and Johnson had the top SPARQ score for an ATH and ran a 4.4 40 so we know he can run and is a great athlete.  But, safety is a little harder to learn for a RS freshman with very little experience.  But, I'd think we would want to get him ready for next year at least unless Hawkins comes back for another year.

Is the offensive game plan for MSU and Indiana actually drastically different than Minnesota (as it seems to me as a layperson), or it's actually similar but the defenses are simply taking the more "speed in space" elements away by alignment / strategy / whatever?

It seems like execution is the larger problem than scheme on offense.  The plays are there.  There are open WRs that either Milton doesn't see, doesn't make an accurate throw to, or the WR/TE drops the ball.  We also aren't getting much push up front from the line for the running game.  The one surprising thing I'm not seeing a lot of the QB keep.  That's about my only complain with play calling.  The rest seems like execution.  But, it's hard missing your #1 WR, starting OTs, and breaking in a new QB, OGs, & C.  We all knew offense might see some struggles.  But, I didn't think we expected the OTs to get injured, for all the drops, Milton unable to hit the deep ball, and so few QB runs.