Gattis and tempo question.
So, I've been reading the articles on Gattis and the new no huddle offense he's installing.
I choose to be optimistic. So no 'I'll believe it when I see it' for me. The evidence seems to show that this is in fact a sea change offensively.
On the surface I like it. We have two coordinators who sound like a football version of Horatio Nelson. 'Bring the enemy to battle....on our terms...'
With that said:
What is the opinion out there. Will we look like OSU?
I hate to say it, but I have to ask, is there a version of no huddle that can be slow? We aren't known for our speed currently.
Are any MgoCoaches out there worried about the transition costs coupled with the drop off in talent on the D?
I really hope this settles and and lights some fireworks. If only because I'm tired of changing coordinators and tweaking schemes. I'd love to have the identity as a high powered O that can still bruise, and a tough D.
This was the offense that Michigan wanted to run all season, but injuries robbed them of the opportunity. They brought Tom Moore, the offensive coach from the Colts who developed the offense that Manning ran for years, to consult before the season. A dead armed Henne and a one legged Hart, among other injuries, sidelined that prospect.
Also Greg Mattison was the co-defensive coordinator for Florida in that game. I hope he has a similar lack of success against us this year.
Mattison seemed like an outstanding DC when it came to stopping traditional pro-style offenses, but IIRC we got shredded by every good passing team we faced in those years.
Routs. Nobody reads any more.
March 26th, 2019 at 11:20 AM ^
I think the defense will just be relieved if the offense is putting up a few more points early, and running additional offensive plays and scoring which allows the defense a little extra margin for error. The past few seasons I feel like the defense always has pressure to play unrealistically good for long stretches to keep the offense in the game when we aren't scoring, leading to flat out fatigue at the end of games and at the end of seasons.
I hope any "transition costs" are balanced out by the fact that hopefully we won't need a defense that plays all-world all the time. Offenses are too good and varied to think we can win at the highest level with just a shut-down defense. There are some teams you are just not going to shut down, you have to outscore them to win. That was the situation at OSU. We brought a knife to a gun fight and by the time we decided we needed a gun to compete the hole was too deep.
March 26th, 2019 at 11:28 AM ^
I keep saying...no huddle, doesn't mean we play fast in terms of tempo.
OSU and PSU both go no huddle, neither is particularly fast unless they're in a hurry-up situation.
People automatically assume we're going to be Dino Babers Syracuse or Kingsbury Texas Tech...that's probably no the case.
I'd bet a dollar that it'll be more of a "check with me system."
March 26th, 2019 at 11:34 AM ^
So... and here is an honest question born out of ignorance. What does it give us? A better base from which to run tempo if we want?
I'm just wondering if we go no huddle but are still relatively slow what the trade up is? Again, not being cynical. The idea someone else posted about the ability to go tempo seems to make sense.
I suppose an alternate question is can you go tempo and huddle? What do you give up without a huddle?
March 26th, 2019 at 11:44 AM ^
I think the more pressing issue to have the ability to play tempo and no huddle if the situation arises. There was a lot to like and a lot to dislike about how Pep/Harbaugh were calling games, but the "malpractice" involved was that we were basically constitutionally incapable of playing fast when we needed to. I am of the opinion that what we see on a down to down basis will not be entirely different, but that the offense will have specific tempo packages to run in particular circumstances. Despite Harbaugh's statements in press conferences about tempo, I would be shocked if Michigan came out in like a four-wide no huddle as a "base look." There is no way that Gattis is going to complete de-Harbaugh the offense. I believe that Harbaugh will accept input and allow Gattis to put his imprint on the offense, I also don't think he will allow his entire offensive philosophy to be overhauled.
One thing to be gained, from the mouth of Ed Warinner himself, I heard today on Sam's show - a podcast, could have been from today's show, maybe yesterday's, but it was re-broadcast from an "Attack Each Day" show in an interview with Ira: Warinner said that the OL guys will appreciate the 14 yards it saves them on every play by not huddling.
So, there is that.
One thing you give up by not huddling is the huddle. Which means there can be more communication breakdowns between position groups if they misunderstand the signs or forget the checks because the QB isn't reminding them in the huddle. You also lose the ability to vary snap count and cadence on each down, you basically have to use the same one and the D may begin to tee off on the snap count after ~10 plays
It was mentioned higher up in the thread, but to repeat: going no-huddle is more likely to keep the other side's personnel on the field. In other words, the defense cannot switch out players (because we are at the line, and could snap if they have too many or too few players, or are not set and ready). This is one of the biggest advantages of going no-huddle.
March 26th, 2019 at 11:33 AM ^
I'm fine if the offense operates fast. I'm fine if it goes slow. I only wish to see an offense that is not stubborn in it's playcalling and maximizes it's talent.
March 26th, 2019 at 11:57 AM ^
Love me some Lord Nelson.
March 26th, 2019 at 12:02 PM ^
Going no-huddle and getting to the early gives the QB and OC time to see the defensive alignment and to call audibles.
Last years team got to the LOS so late they hardly had time to shift or put anyone in motion.
March 26th, 2019 at 12:09 PM ^
They got to the line so late at times that they had a hard time getting everyone on the same page pre-snap.
March 26th, 2019 at 12:22 PM ^
Our offense may resemble the Ohio State scheme, but what it boils down to is the athletes running the scheme and Ohio State has better athletes than Michigan right now and that has been the case really since Tressel took away Michigan's ability to pick up Ohio top recruits. Meyer's recruiting of course is right there with Saban. The hiring of Gattis as an OC will finally put players on ONE page with one guy steering the ship instead of 3 or 4 guys trying to do it. I predict that Michigan's offense will be much better in 2019 with an experienced and capable group coming back at every position. I have been saying it and I will stick by it is that the real concern is the defense in 2019 and not because they lost some good talent. The problem will once again be stopping the GOOD offenses consistently and not being exploited because the D scheme WILL NOT change. Since Harbaugh came to town, the offense would essentially stall against good defenses because it would not open up with it's talent and then the D would give up huge plays or not show up at all because it was exploited early. This year, I see the offense scoring quite often and hopefully it doesn't become another Oklahoma situation where we are scoring tit for tat just to keep up in the good games because our D is getting ripped.
March 26th, 2019 at 12:25 PM ^
March 26th, 2019 at 12:32 PM ^
My hunch is we'll look a lot like PSU's offense the past few years.
So we should expect lots of armpunts from Shea?
March 26th, 2019 at 12:35 PM ^
I'm hoping that practicing against a no-huddle offense with more tempo than we've had in the past will help the defense get ready for Indiana and OSU. They'll see this in practice all season and through camp, so I would hope that helps with preparation.
I agree in part. I'm not so pessimistic on the defense, but it is a real concern. I think we have a defense that can handle 85% of the situations very well, but has some glaring holes that can be exploited. Hopefully we can scheme around it better this year.
I meant that in response to another poster. Sorry about that.
March 26th, 2019 at 12:39 PM ^
I've learned from Mgo that you are not to ask tough questions, especially in the off season when every single move we make is to be viewed as a game changer that gets us to Bama levels of football excellence.
We had the 21st scoring offense in the country last season. Our offense was not as bad as many people seem to think. And we were 5th in total time of possession in the country.
Despite that, I agree that a more modern offense is a positive step. One of Harbaugh's strengths is evaluating his team honestly IMO. He looked at the elite teams in college and saw that they score points and all run some type of spread/ no huddle. So I applaud us evolving on offense.
Gattis seems to be a young smart offensive mind. Wish he had more experience calling plays and running an offense, but I think he can be a home run...eventually. Which brings me to my possible concerns. Is there a big learning curve with what we will be doing now? Is this something that will get installed this year, but not start producing the desired results until year 2 or 3?
How does our personnel fit this system? I know we love our WRs, but is this offense the type they will thrive in? What about our talented TEs? How about the O Line who I thought was ready to dominate this coming year, are they learning totally new concepts? I know we've been discussin a lot of this, I like what I hear, but I'm of the wait and see type right now.
Also, we saw this defense not miss a beat in 2017 after losing most of its starters, but that 2016 defense was insanely deep and talented, in fact some of our best players were backups. So in 2017 we had Rashan Gary, Mo Hurst, Devin Bush, Chase Winovich, etc etc all of whom were already big time players ready to be the leaders. I don't view the 2018 defense the same way. I love some of the pieces, but just don't see the same type of guys that 2017 had ready to be All Americans. It will still be a very good defense, just probably a clear step back.
There are always transition costs. One of Harbaugh's strengths is his ability to self-evaluate; one of his weaknesses might be the lack of consistency with his schemes. Mastery takes time, and needs to be at a program level. That's why Wisconsin can stay nationally-relevant with average recruiting: they run the same damn stuff no matter who coaches there.
My hope is that Gattis represents a permanent shift to a modern offense that the program--not just the coaches--can commit to on a long-term basis. I do believe that is the case, and that Harbaugh has realized it's time for Michigan--who attempted this shift with Rich Rod--to move on from the Bo style of offense. Because why be Wisconsin when you can be Alabama.
March 26th, 2019 at 12:57 PM ^
I recall Rich Rod running no-huddle and taking some time to set the play.
Huddling is quite literally a waste of time when put in context. You have 40 seconds from the end of one play to snap the ball, starting the next play. Huddling takes 10-30 seconds off the clock compared to the 5-10 to get directly into a formation. So, the question becomes two:
- What can your offense do with that time?
- What can't their defense do with that time?
Well, our offense can take their time and read the defense, maybe audible. Our offense can hurry up and save time on the clock at the end of the game. Our offense can continue to take advantage of mismatches in personnel by...not allowing their defense to substitute. If they try to substitute, we are in position to catch them with 10 men in formation or 12 men on the field.
It's all about flexibility. With a huddle, you have less. Remove the huddle and you are more able to attack.
Or as Bo's hero and role model, George S. Patton said about his offensive strategy with regard to the Wehrmacht:
"TAKE 'EM BY THE NOSE AND KICK 'EM IN THE ASS!"
I'm not really concerned about the tempo. I'm more worried about our propensity to throw to slow TEs that aren't all that great in the first place instead of our WRs who are more likely to make plays. I want to see crossing routes to WRs who can make guys miss in space. High percentage throws to players who can break a big play instead of handicapping ourselves with outdated concepts.
If for nothing else, I at least look forward to this team having the ability to run a two minute offense. I'm sick of there being 1:52 on the clock and we get three plays off...
I mentioned this in another post, but it's appropriate here.
The main aspect of the "modern offense" is the addition of the RPO. Optioning defenders -- whether in the run game or the passing game -- is nothing new. What is new, however, is throwing what essentially amounts to throwing three different options at the defense, with one of those being a pass.
The classic Triple Option was FB, QB, RB (for the most part). The modern RPO is similar in that it goes Give, Keep, Throw. The addition of this throwing element into mix has made it almost impossible -- when executed properly -- to choose which you're going to defend because once you move to defend one, you trigger the read on the other.
This is where the no huddle comes in. As others have mentioned, it's not that you have to go fast -- although that can be advantageous -- its that you trap a defense in certain personnel that offers matchup problems. I was told by a high school coach to notice how in a well executed RPO you'll often see glaringly open W'R's catching passes and having nobody within 5 yards of them. Similarly, RB's don't have to slog it out as much, because when they get the ball (if the read is correct) it's because the defender has taken himself out of position.
Everyone used to joke that in Bo's heyday he would hand the opposition his playbook and dare them to out execute his team. Obviously, that's a bit hyperbolic. But, modern offenses are based upon #SpeedInSpace and that space is created by using the defenses own actions against them, rather than simply "beating your man." Obviously, one-on-one battles are still the essence of the game. But, like Aikedo, in which the attacker's momentum and force is used against him, a modern OC, through the use of formations, tempo and no huddle, and really work over a defense.
With all the weapons we have on the roster, I am excited to see.
Go Blue!
Good stuff ...... also worth mentioning: if Gattis means what I think he means by saying he wants to run more pro-style spread than power, the spacing on the OL is wider, not by giant steps but by steps. Moreover, the OL outside blocks instead of in-line blocks. The net effect, when the OL gets it done like this, is much more space that the defense has to account for in the run game ..... when you are adding RPO concepts to pro-style spread in 1X personnel formations, the threat of the run, pass, keep options, keeps the defense from easily recognizing the point of attack and filling quickly ..... something M had problems with against competent defenses like osu's.
DrMantis Toboggan's comment about the TEs getting moved around into different positions off the OL, like into H-Back or Slot positions creates just one more thing a defense has to cope with. Doing this is a natural extension of the pro-style spread .... TEs can still block outside when needed or they can become mystery receivers. That's the TE that is blittheringly wide open off an RPO or makes the key block outside on a tailback or end-around sweep.
The OP's original question about Tempo and what it means has been addressed. As fans, we're going to see more plays via a faster (tempo) offense .... sometimes but not always as it will be situational. I think the biggest thing we are going to see with M's offense with Gattis calling plays is more efficient plays both in the pass and run game. I don't remember the exact numbers for 2018, but M was not efficient on a play-by-play basis and this was especially a problem in the RZ.
It's already been said multiple ways but M's 2019 offense is still going to sit right around a 55/45 run pass mix when all is said and done but all-play efficiency will hopefully explode.
Ohio State's no-huddle from '12-'16 wasn't consistently up-tempo, but we used it a moderate amount during that time. We've used it more under Day and Wilson the past couple seasons, which makes sense because Day learned from Chip Kelley and Wilson was using up-tempo offenses back at Oklahoma before most teams did.
I wouldn't expect your O to be too up-tempo this year- that would likely lead to a lot of miscues and penalties- but I wouldn't be surprised to see the tempo pick up as the year goes on and the players get comfortable. I could be wrong, that's just what I predict.
Thanks for your insight.
Should've added in my original comment that I think this transition will be beneficial for UM, even if there are some hiccups at first. I was just responding to the poster's question about whether or not a no-huddle could be slow.
Losing Evans was a tough break for you guys, but I think Patterson fits well in more of a spread system, and you guys have some really talented receivers. Plus, Warinner did a good job helping OSU's linemen make the transition to running a system similar to what Gattis is proposing, so I think there's plenty of reasons for UM fans to feel good about this change
+1000 for the Nelson reference.
Watch Joe Moorhead offenses from Penn State and Miss State, plus the weird stuff Alabama did last year.
That's pretty much where Michigan is headed offensively under Gattis, IMO.
You can't gimmick-system your way out of a perpetual non-trivial talent gap.
Alabama and OSU and Clemson have better aggregate raw talent and depth by a not small margin and until that gap gets closed up we'll usually be an also-ran to them.
They also have YEARS of system stability with just tweaks and adjustments. Our offense hasn't had that since Carr was forced out. You can't get good at something if the something keeps changing.
Point taken ...... but Gattis has been immersed in two very non-gimmick offenses under Moorhead and Saban. Suggesting, like you do, that M's offense will be gimmicky is off the mark.
I don't think the hiring of Gattis, giving him the keys to the offense, any of that, marks a major departure from Jim Harbaugh's underlying game philosophy that he has practiced since becoming a HC a decade or more ago.
It will still be aggressive, physical and run centric - Gattis has said this. What JH's offense has failed to do is offer sufficient variability to the plays he runs from power (2X formations). He's also over-emphasized the FBs and TEs at the expense of more talented and faster athletes play-by-play. That is going to change.
Nah. Harbaugh's system worked fine when he had players with superior skills. That's how it usually sorts out, regardless of the system. When you have Andrew Luck, Owen Marecic, and Coby Fleener (etc.) you can do things that don't work with Nick Sheridah, Michael Shaw, and Sam McGuffie.
And yeah, IMO, when you start saying things like "We never huddle", it's gimmick.
And...whatever. 15 years of spring hype followed by losing to OSU and the "here's how it will be different this year" speeches have entirely lost effect on me.
Huddle or no huddle. TE and FB, or 5-8 speedsters. Sheridan/Threet or Denard. I don't really care anymore. Go beat OSU, win the BIG 10, and then tell me how it was different.
March 26th, 2019 at 10:41 PM ^
On the talent issue ....... I'll agree with you to a point. I don't think an analysis of JH's recruiting will bear out that the talent discrepancy between the current elites and Michigan is so great that a combination of well executed scheme and a bit of things going M's way can't elevate M to elite status.
No question, in the case of osu, day and meyer had more dudes than M had in the 2018 version of The Game. Moreover, JH's appraoch to that game on multiple levels sucked......IMO, he failed to advantage the talent he did have on the field, injuries and all. Perfect combo to produce the ass-kicking osu delivered.
Still, I get your BPONE. I was in attendance in the Big House as a student at M for Bo's win over Woody in '69. M won a ton of BT Championships after that and was considered among CFB's elites until, maybe, LC's last two years when he lost interest and the team played soft. Since then M football has been mostly a horror show.
For the last 10+ years, it's been tough to watch games live in Michigan Stadium or on TV for a lot of reasons beyond bad football. But couple bad football with the shit that goes on with ticket prices, inflated in-stadium food prices (thanks, Dave) and interminable time outs for this and that - extending games sometimes beyond 4h - and it's more than I am willing to put up with. The osu loss was nearly the last straw for me. If I didn't have a sense that Harbaugh recognized the problems post the 2018 season and seems to have taken steps to fix them, I'd not attend another M football game and I've been a season ticket holder since 1978. I'm cautiously pessimistic for 2019 and Gattis is a symbol of why.
March 27th, 2019 at 10:46 AM ^
Oh BornInA2, you’re just the BPONEIEST!
Chicks dig BPONE dudes these days — it’s all the rage ... like skinny jeans!
March 26th, 2019 at 11:42 PM ^
it’s going to be like Penn St. under Moorehead and OSU with Warriner. They run 75 plays a game Harbaugh operated with 60-65 in the WCO.
It won’t be Chip Kelly Oregon. 90 plays a game ain’t gonna happen.
Tempo for OSU/PSU is not constant. If they get a first down to start a drive they’ll go fast. If they get into 2nd and long they’ll survey and adjust.
If we’re using multiple packages and subbing guys in tempo isn’t happening.
I have concerns with tempo. Brown’s D is gassed by the end of the year. Look at our last 2-3 games of each of his seasons. If we add reps to his unit, get into shootouts where the D is playing an extra 20 reps a game it’s like playing an extra game every 4 weeks. Cumulative effect can crush teams
couple that with the fact that a new offense takes time to click. It won’t be easy and it’s absurd to expect it to go from 0-100 overnight. OSU/PSU weren’t juggernauts their first year of power spread...both teams has some rough patches with similar talent