We should talk about 2016 Penn State’s offense
Like everyone not working for the football team, I’m concerned about what we saw on offense. It’s been bad, and other than the RPO-rich drive against MTSU, it’s looked like last year, but with a better running back and healthy Tarik.
The only thing keeping me off the ledge is 2016 Penn State, which went from a shambolic joke that lost to Pitt and got the doors blown off by Michigan in the beginning of the season to beating OSU (in a weird fluke), winning the B1G, and then in 2017 looking like one of the best offenses in college football under Joe Moorhead.
Gattis isn’t Moorhead. But we don’t know enough yet to rule out that kind of turnaround.
Honestly, the worst thing about the Army game is we basically learned nothing at all about the team. They’re just too weird on both sides of the ball to provide a measuring stick. Let’s hope we open the playbook against Wiscy (as we did last year), and these couple of weeks are looked back on as growing pains, not the beginning of the end.
September 11th, 2019 at 8:26 PM ^
Jackie treehorn?
September 12th, 2019 at 3:54 AM ^
Jackie treehorn treats objects like women, man.
September 11th, 2019 at 6:01 PM ^
I agree.
September 11th, 2019 at 7:01 PM ^
So does Isaiah Hole.
September 11th, 2019 at 6:02 PM ^
2016 Penn State offense (per S&P+):
2nd in the nation in Explosiveness.
80th in the nation in Efficiency.
15th in the nation in Finishing Drives.
100th (!!!) in the nation in Rushing Success.
I mean - for the most part, that offense worked. Even in the Pittsburgh loss, PSU scored 39 points. PSU scored 29+ against everyone outside of U-M and OSU, who had Top 10 defenses in 2016 (and the defense stepped up against OSU to keep that game close enough to pull it out in the 4th Quarter).
And the efficiency and Rushing Success rankings were much better in 2017 - 8th and 22nd in the country - so 2016 was a bit unique.
But all those 2016 numbers represented a "go for the home run, don't think too much about working for walks" type of football offense, which seems like the complete philosophical opposite of what Jim Harbaugh likes.
September 11th, 2019 at 10:40 PM ^
It's kind of sad, really that our posters here are so desperately grasping at straws they don't really take a look into what they're posting at times.
Franklin had a much better, seasoned staff and a roster of home run hitters. He made a major change in mid-season to someone he knew would be better.
Right now, the speculation is that Patterson was injured and there's no one on the roster who is better than even an injured Shea.
Comparison is not a good one.
September 12th, 2019 at 8:14 AM ^
What major change did Franklin make mid season? Pretty sure both Moorehead and McSorley were there all year. I would like your breakdown of how his staff was better than ours is today.
No the comparison isn't perfect. From a standpoint of "Sometimes installing a new offense goes a bit rough but it can take off later in the season" it's a reasonable discussion to have.
September 11th, 2019 at 6:03 PM ^
I really hope that the team's focus was on installing a decent part of the playbook and surviving against the first two opponents when we were short handed Runyan and DPJ.
If Patterson's injury heals up a bit, then all of a sudden we are a fully healthy team coming off two weeks of additional practice.
2016 Penn State is a nice analogue, because they basically went through the same transformation as us. It'd be fun if Charbonnet turns into Saquon Barkley of course, but one can hope that the RPOs start to manifest against Wisconsin.
I'm really intrigued though about the Ronnie Bell options that we've seen in videos of practice. Do you think that we're going to have a triple option package built into our offense or do you think that was simply a practice for Army?
September 11th, 2019 at 8:15 PM ^
I love your handle. I lived on 5VT. 5409.
FireUp VanTyne.
Van Tyne Hall (2 floors in Markley) named for Claude Van Tyne
from Wikipedia:
Claude Halstead Van Tyne was an American historian. He was a senior fellow at the University of Pennsylvania in 1902. He taught history at the University of Michigan from 1903 to 1930 and wrote several books on the American Revolution. He won the Pulitzer Prize for The War of Independence in 1930.
Born: October 16, 1869, Tecumseh, MI
Died: March 21, 1930, Ann Arbor, MI
Children: Josselyn Van Tyne
Education: University of Pennsylvania, University of Michigan
Parents: Lawrence H., Helena van Tyne
Awards: Pulitzer Prize for History
September 11th, 2019 at 11:04 PM ^
Same room! Lived there in 2007-2008.
September 12th, 2019 at 7:17 AM ^
5405 2010-2011. The VT Cruisers.
September 12th, 2019 at 1:10 PM ^
5433! Tried to get VT Cruisers to catch on but it never did...
September 11th, 2019 at 8:35 PM ^
Losing a couple of players save maybe the QB shouldn’t change significantly what you are trying to run.
Army’s D was a serious challenge to Shea’s reads as reinforced by the Seth’s sharpie review. This will get worked on. Shea was a few passes, fumbles and a bad ref call from leading UofM to a comfortable win. He also hit some pretty tight windows
Shea will improve. Gattis will improve.
September 11th, 2019 at 6:05 PM ^
Relevance?
September 11th, 2019 at 6:05 PM ^
Good post. I like the comparison. This team has so much talent that they can be even better than the 2016 offense if they start clicking. Yes 2016 penn state has an advantage at running back and probably one at QB but there isn’t one receiver or offensive lineman at penn state in 2016 that would start for our team this year. A good offensive line cannot be understated because Barkley and Trace really never had a good line.
However my worries are 1) that Harbaugh still hasn’t given up 100% control of play calling. 2) Gattis is learning and growing as well because he has never called plays by himself before. Morehead had 10 years of play calling experience in college before joining penn state.
I still expect a mid to late season Michigan offense that begins to click with all the talent they have and these week 1-2 worries are a distant memory.
September 11th, 2019 at 6:20 PM ^
Gesicki and Chris Godwin would start for UM this year. Barkley was far better than anyone on UM this year.
September 11th, 2019 at 6:26 PM ^
However my worries are 1) that Harbaugh still hasn’t given up 100% control of play calling. 2) Gattis is learning and growing as well because he has never called plays by himself before.
There may be a reason why Harbs went with a guy who has never actually been an OC and called plays. My worry isn't that Harbs hasn't given up 100% control of the play, my worry is that Harbs himself hasn't bought into the new offense.
September 11th, 2019 at 6:54 PM ^
I'm fine with Harbaugh calling plays. His offense looked great in 15 and 16 and we had a 10 game win streak scoring tons of points last year.
Gattis is an unknown quantity. He can ride with training wheels for a bit.
September 11th, 2019 at 7:20 PM ^
Back in '15 and '16 when Michigan had an OC, okay, passing game coordinator, who had actual experience as an OC and calling plays. Even the opening loss to Utah, on the road, in 2015 looked a helluva lot better than the win over Army. In 2015 Michigan had an entirely new system with a cast off QB who had just joined the team a month before the opening game, and OL held together with paper and glue. That team, with that loss, looked far more credible than anything we've seen in 2019.
September 11th, 2019 at 7:43 PM ^
I've long said that Fisch was the secret sauce for those teams, but folks around here are loathe to give him credit.
Should have made him OC instead of letting him leave.
We don't know what we have yet with Gattis, but he gets this season to prove himself. If we lose to OSU he should be fired. If it happens again in 2020, then Harbaugh should be too.
September 12th, 2019 at 11:37 AM ^
I don't get this perspective...
If Gattis truly is a dud, why wait on letting Harbaugh go? If the man can't find the right people for the coaching positions he has NO BUSINESS being a head coach. I think there's a lot of buzz out there talking about Harbaugh's previous successes being a result of the staff that he inherited.
HARBAUGH is the Captain of his ship, no one else, and he needs to learn that his name doesn't give him a free pass to play musical chairs with staff... each time garnering him another year of trial and error. He should have had all of this sh*t in place from the very beginning.
This is why I'm NOT in the Harbaugh camp, I think he's searching for answers, doesn't have them, and is praying that he finds the secret recipe' to succeed. It doesn't work that way... he got lucky at Stanford & San Fran.
September 12th, 2019 at 8:24 AM ^
I think you guys forgot a lot about the first half of 2015 and remember most of the second half (outside of OSU that is). The first half was pretty ugly - Utah was bad. Oregon State, who was terrible, was a slog until the snap went over the punter's head and we barely punched it in before half despite starting inside the 5. UNLV, also terrible with a first year HC, another slog. It was only in the next few games (the shutout streak) where the Offense improved against BYU and Northwestern, although @ Maryland was another rough outing where most of our points came late and were set up by turnovers.
September 12th, 2019 at 9:22 AM ^
The offense struggled a bit those first two games in 2015, but it still looked more cohesive than anything we've seen yet this year. And not a bunch of coaching mistakes.
September 11th, 2019 at 6:09 PM ^
We okay with losing 49-10 in Madison then beating OSU and winning the Big Ten?
I'd take that, but the meltdown in the meantime would be hard to imagine.
September 11th, 2019 at 6:12 PM ^
I don't think the program survives a 49-10 loss at any point this season. The fanbase barely tolerates close wins.
September 11th, 2019 at 6:17 PM ^
I would, but it would be ROUGH.
September 11th, 2019 at 6:57 PM ^
We can lose 4 more games by any margin and I'll be pleased as punch if we beat OSU when it's all over.
Unranked Michigan ruining OSU's perfect season? Yes please.
September 11th, 2019 at 7:02 PM ^
One thing we have going for us is that Don Brown has absolutely owned Paul Chryst, even in our loss in 2017. Penn State did not have that kind of defensive track record in 2016:
2016:
Wisconsin scored 7 points on 159 total yards. They were 9/25 passing for 3.5 yards per completion. They carried the ball 28 times for 71 yards.
2017:
Wisconsin's offense scored 17 points on 325 total yards. They were 9/19 passing for 7.5 yards per completion. They ran the ball 40 times for 182 yards. Before Peters went out at the end of the 3rd quarter, Wisconsin's offense had 14 points on 174 yards.
2018:
Wisconsin's offense scored 13 points on 283 total yards. They were 7-20 passing for 5 yards per completion. They ran the ball 29 times for 183 yards. 91 of their yards and 6 of their 13 points came after Michigan was up 3 scores and the game was out of hand.
September 11th, 2019 at 7:12 PM ^
The only reason I'm bearish on the defense against Wisconsin this year is due to our DL play taking a slight step back from previous years. We haven't seen this crew go up against a corn-fed OL yet.
September 11th, 2019 at 8:41 PM ^
2017. Refs stole 7 on the TD pass to DPJ. Then called a phantom game changer pass interference against us on a 3rd and 12 incompletion giving Wiscy 7 and they never looked back. Fuck job supreme.
September 12th, 2019 at 4:35 PM ^
I was there, freezing my ars off. Damn it was cold...
September 12th, 2019 at 12:17 AM ^
I agree that Brown has owned Wisconsin's offense, this is the softest defense up the middle he has had here at Michigan. I feel like Wisconsin is a bad match up for us.
September 12th, 2019 at 6:41 AM ^
So Wisconsin's passing statistics in the last three years combined are 25-64 for 135 yards. Wow. Are we sure they aren't a service academy?
September 11th, 2019 at 6:11 PM ^
Let’s hope ... these couple of weeks are looked back on as growing pains, not the beginning of the end.
How in the world could the first two weeks of the season be "the beginning of the end" of a brand new offensive offensive scheme?!
It's almost as if posters in here have never in their lives tried to implement something new in their personal or professional lives, have never experienced any adversity nor "growing pains" in which something wasn't immediately successful.
Show some backbone, a stiff upper lip, some sack and let the process play out before jumping off the ship and declaring everyone involved a worthless moron (not that that is what you're doing).
September 11th, 2019 at 6:15 PM ^
Because we saw what happened when RichRod interferes with Scott Shafer and moved on to GERG?
September 12th, 2019 at 5:15 AM ^
In what alternate universe does anything that richrod did have any barring on our current situation or coaching staff? That take some serious mental gymnastics to even come up with.
September 11th, 2019 at 11:05 PM ^
And because I've seen this posted - FOR THE RECORD - no, Maryland being leaps and bounds better at this point does not mean Michigan took the "wrong guy" from Alabama to be OC. Time will tell who is better, but RIGHT NOW of fucking course Locksley would look better. Maryland's offense did not fundamentally change this year (and ours did), and they were already a pretty whiz-bang team on offense anyway.
September 12th, 2019 at 12:55 AM ^
62-39 is the reason. If you were paid the top of your profession and failed 5 years in a row to do what you were brought in to do youd be fired.
Maybe its you who doesnt know how the real world works snowflake
September 12th, 2019 at 12:25 PM ^
Dang, Michigan has already lost to OSU this year? And again gave up 60+ points? Glad i missed it, thanks for letting us know!
September 11th, 2019 at 6:26 PM ^
Gattis isn’t Moorhead. But we don’t know enough yet to rule out that kind of turnaround.
Yeah, this is the reality. Moorhead is a lot more proven than Gattis. I'm sure Gattis was influenced by Moorhead, but I don't know that they have the same philosophy. Unfortunately, Shea is also not as good at reading the RPO and QB keep as McSorely was. I think there's hope for improvement over the season, but I'd be surprised if we replicate what PSU did in 2016.
September 11th, 2019 at 6:51 PM ^
I have read that Gattis talks to Moorhead weekly. So they probably have the same philosophy. As for Shea, we will soon find out.
September 11th, 2019 at 7:10 PM ^
Yeah morehead has 10 years of play calling experience before 2016. That aspect does worry me a bit.
September 11th, 2019 at 6:28 PM ^
Hi, I have an opinion and everyone should know it...
September 11th, 2019 at 6:31 PM ^
Disagree with OP. We learned the defense has a will to win. Made a bunch of big plays when needed. We learned we have a budding star in Zach Charbonnet. We learned about how to beat Army - abandon speed in space and pound the rock. The 1st quarter nearly killed us - those two blitz induced fumbles were devastating - we had basically two possessions in the first half given the fumbles and "Army time". That could have easily happened again in the 2nd half given the protection issues. We learned OMG do we need Runyan and Wilson back in the line up. The passing game vs Wisconsin will continue to be limited unless those guys are back.
What we want to see is the balanced and explosive Gattis power spread offense. But if folks want this to be like the wide-open Oklahoma, they will need to pack up the car for the long drive to Norman. It ain't happening in Ann Arbor.
September 11th, 2019 at 6:37 PM ^
Looking for any reference to Oklahoma in my post...
September 11th, 2019 at 7:53 PM ^
"Folks" is broader than you individually morepete. Fans are not listening to Gattis. We are not going all Lincoln Riley so those folks need to alter their expectations. Not sure if you are in that camp or not. But what we learned is Michigan can play smash mouth football as needed and will do so when the coaches decide it is the better game plan.
September 12th, 2019 at 10:00 AM ^
Why do people assume Oklahoma doesn’t run the ball?
This is the same school that broke the all time rushing record with players like Perrine, Mixon, Peterson etc
September 11th, 2019 at 6:49 PM ^
You speak words of wisdom.
September 11th, 2019 at 6:52 PM ^
I watched that team closely. Sorry, but this isnt the same other than the vague idea of a transition.
Franklin was handcuffed with Christian Hackenberg when he arrived. He wanted to run spread as he did at Vanderbilt, but had stodgy, manball pieces left by O'Brien. Franklin had recruited a spread QB in Freshman McSorely, but Hackenberg was considered a 1st round NFL talent and PSU rode him out until he left and they could transition.
Joe Moorhead was brought in with capital "R" resume. He was a long-time OC. He ran kick ass offenses at Akron and UConn. He took a head job at Fordham in FCS and killed everybody. Once Hackenberg was gone, Franklin brought in the best spread guy available, paired him with a spread QB and they ran it from day 1.
We, on the other hand, made half a transition with Warinner last year with a pseudo-spread QB that we kinda tried to make a pocket passer before moving to read option gun running game, but paired with an NFL pass game under Hamilton. Now we've tried to complete the move by adding first-time OC Gattis (not in the same zip code as Moorhead experience-wise) to fully go spread. Unfortunately for the transition, this is a Harbaugh operation and apparently we're prone to games like Army where we abandon what we want to do in favor of... whatever the hell that was Saturday. Pure panic?
Penn State never did that. Heres their game 2 in year one against Pitt. They lost that because their D sucked. But offensively, they looked like Speed in Space from the jump.
They converted wholesale with coaching and personnel and committed to it. We converted in phases and still appear to favor falling back into bull-headed run game instead of just torching an undermanned defense when the going got tough.
Yes, 2016 PSU struggled against us. They lost a couple early. But at no point did they do what we just did against Army and turtle. This was supposed to be a Gattis operation without Harbaugh interjection. That appears to have been a lie. If we're really going to succeed and modernize, we have to actually do it and take our lumps in the process.
I get the PSU comparison. It makes as much sense as Oklahoma-Army. It looks similar but if you dive in, it's nothing alike. I'll be amazed if we take off like they did.