Is Utah, Hoke's biggest game so far?
Well the disappointment of the last few years has erased the memories of the Hoke's Sugar Bowl appearance in year one. Since then the player development has lacked especially on the O-Line. Many of us after the ND debacle are frustrated and with Utah coming in this week with high-powered offense a big game looms. With a loss this week, resulting in a 2-2 start can potentially lead to this season spiralling out control considering Hoke's inability to get this team prepared on the road. Is this Hoke's biggest game so far?
Another point that came to my mind this week is that this team will be loaded next year with the vast majority of players returning. With that being, in the event Hoke is fired at the end of the year, I think whoever is the coach next year is gonna have a great year with Hoke's player as a result of so many having experienced players. Hoke laid the foundation we just may need a better coach to take us to the next level.
September 18th, 2014 at 11:24 AM ^
No matter the outcome of this game, we are still undefeated in the B1G.
September 18th, 2014 at 12:02 PM ^
I'd rather lose to Utah than anyone else left on the schedule. They are the most 'loseable' game because a) they are legit, so it would not be embarrasing and b) it has no consequences for the conference.
Losing to Minnesota, Rutgers, Northwestern would be a BAD loss. Losing to Maryland or Penn State would sting more, as there is a divisional hierarchy to consider and burgeoning rivalries to establish dominance in. Indiana would hurt more too as they are not as good as Utah but similarly speak to a clash of program philosphy and direction. MSU and OSU - obvs.
September 18th, 2014 at 12:14 PM ^
It's not close to top ten.
I assume your question refers to his job security. Losing this game wouldn't cost him his job. It's a virtual certainty he finishes the season. If the team is bowl eligible, he'll be back for 2015.
September 18th, 2014 at 12:28 PM ^
make that statement definitively. If you want to go with "win 8 games and he'll be back for the 2015 season," OK, but to say that if we are bowl eligible he will be back no matter what is pretty crazy I would say. We go 6-6 with losses to say, ND, MSU, OSU, Utah, Penn State and say, Rutgers, and then lose a bowl game, I think him returning is 50/50 at very best. I think it could be objectively determined at that point that he was drastically underacheiving and just not a capable coach at this level. There is no reason for the team not to be improving. If they remain stagnant and in some cases, continue regressing, he will have a problem on his hands at the end of this year.
September 18th, 2014 at 1:34 PM ^
Unless a great candidate presents himself(Harbaugh) there is no way Brandon breaks up this coaching staff. With this OC, this DC, and Hoke's recruiting, given time this thing is going to work.
Now to get the fans/media off his back, Hoke has got to get to "10" wins. "10" with the understanding that OSU and MSU count for 3 wins each.
September 18th, 2014 at 2:27 PM ^
The problem I have with your statement is the assumption that with time, this is going to work. Define "work"? Going 8-4 each year is that "work"? If so, then I'd say your statement is accurate. But if you're talking consistent 9-10 win seasons, the verdict is out. Everyone knows that with stability and decent recruiting Hoke will continue to solidify the team, but to what ceiling? Many dedicated Michigan fans look at Michigan as one of the 5-6 seminal college football programs if not THE most seminal given wins/win%/tradition/uniforms/stadium/fanbase. Such fans thus expect Michigan to have among the 5-6 best records each year, to be consistently ranked top 5, and should thus have one of the 5-6 best coaches out there. Meaning, coaches that come in, and in under 4 years do the things guys like Saban has done, or Malzahn has done, Peterson did at BSU, etc., etc.
The average 8-4 ceiling that Hoke's body of work is trending toward may be the new idea of what "work" means for many fans, but definitely not for most.
This doesn't mean DB will fire Hoke after this year even if he tanks because if anything, the lesson over the last 7 years is not to make decisions without a sure-thing candidate already in place. So I'm with those that say, absent a Harbaugh or Miles getting in line, we'll be seeing Brady next year even if we go 7-6 and once again lose to MSU and Ohio, and lose this Utah game.
September 18th, 2014 at 3:32 PM ^
I don't think it's fair to say there is some 8-4 ceiling given that Hoke's first year the team went 11-2. Granted, that may not happen every year but that's what a ceiling is. I can easily envision Hoke putting teams ont he field that lose no more than 2 games (maybe as soon as next year). I think the better question is whether he is good enough to go zero or one loss in certain seasons. I will agree that the jury is out on that.
September 18th, 2014 at 5:13 PM ^
Well we know someone who works in football operations and right now the word is it is not looking good for Hoke coming back.. prob get negged but w/e. I also feel it was just the general feeling after the ND game which is why people are talking within the program. Guess we will have to see how the entire season plays out.
Id love to have him return in favor of how young our team still is and we are continually building depth.
The defense is turning a corner we hope and the O-line is making strides.. As we continue to build depth there I think going forward we are going to be ok there as well..
Be a shame to see Hoke go when he has yet to have a true Pro style QB run his offense which he envisioned since he got there and has yet to have one.
September 18th, 2014 at 6:03 PM ^
Which makes it impossible unless he wins one of Sparty or Ohio. I think he can certainly be back even without winning those.
September 18th, 2014 at 6:19 PM ^
I'd count Sparty and Ohio as two and think eight is the bar for a lot of fans.
September 18th, 2014 at 12:22 PM ^
Please define your use of the word "legit."
September 18th, 2014 at 1:41 PM ^
They ranked above Michigan in FEI last year, despite their record. That's because they beat Stanford and lost a bunch of close games against quality Pac 12 teams. They did this despite losing their starting QB for most of the year. They've had consistently solid to very good defenses for many years now. The problem has been the offense but it seems to have come around with their new coordinator. Wilson is now an upperclassmen, so there's some Gholston parallels...
They have talent and proven coaches. Add in the spread/tempo stuff and Utah is flat out scary.
September 18th, 2014 at 3:21 PM ^
We also lost a bunch of close games last year, 4 games by a total of 11 points to be exact. It sucks that we as a fan base are justifying being a fraid of a team that went 5-7 the last two seasons. Our team is not as bad as we think it is, but we do need some wins to boost our confidence.
September 18th, 2014 at 3:47 PM ^
You might want to mention that some of those close games were against powerhouses like Akron and UCONN and a scholarship depleted, transition heavy PSU though, and that for the first time in our lifetimes, Michigan looked like it didn't belong on the same field with Sparty.
The only positive I can see is that the team has probably hits its floor under Hoke and is now trending upwards, but given the mistakes we're seeing out of him as a head coach, from game management, to lack of preparedness vs. certain schemes to the OL disaster of last year, temper any hope that Hoke has a high end ceiling.
September 18th, 2014 at 5:16 PM ^
Not like the OL disaster last year was a product of RR recruiting only 6 O-line in 3 recruiting classes..
I don't think in all the years of Mich football we have ever had such a young Oline and it was for obvious reasons
September 18th, 2014 at 6:11 PM ^
Rodriguez had 6 in his first recruiting class alone. The next two combined for 4, making a total of 10 over 3 years. A little light, but reasonable given that a) he had Molk and b) 4 of his recruits were drafted at OL in the NFL. If Rich Rod was good at ANYTHING it was recruiting OLmen and getting them productive quickly. The 2011 offense was very good in large part because of the OL that he put together.
Oh, you want to blame him for the 2011 class? The aborted class Hoke signed? The one he had to fight job status questions all through? The class that lost Jake Fisher when Rodriguez got canned? Doesn't work that way. That's on Dave Brandon before anyone else.
September 18th, 2014 at 7:05 PM ^
and didn't several of them have to end their career's early or never even played. Ill have to go back and look who he actually recruited and who panned out, but i was going by previous mentions of what was said on this site
September 18th, 2014 at 6:02 PM ^
it attempts to incorporate margin of victory and strength of opponent all at once. Utah ranked better than Michigan last year, indicating they were a better team.
Urah returned a bunch of guys plus got the QB back healthy. They are (probably) better, though information is scarce.
Michigan returns a bunch too but lost some big pieces at OT and WR. ND last year vs. ND this year indicates that we are (maybe) worse.
September 18th, 2014 at 11:39 PM ^
September 18th, 2014 at 11:25 AM ^
No, the biggest games of his career were the Sugar Bowl and the rivalry games (which results have been varried) on a stand-a-lone basis. At this juncture, given how things have gone, this is an important game for him to keep the wolves at bay. If the good guys go down on Saturday, I promise all hell will break loose. If he wants to keep his job, he needs to win.
God help usSeptember 18th, 2014 at 11:38 AM ^
Not to parse words, but you say no, Utah is not Hoke's biggest game so far, but then go on to say if he wants to keep his job, he needs to win.
September 18th, 2014 at 12:05 PM ^
I wouldn't say it's the "biggest," but it's definitely a must-win.
September 18th, 2014 at 3:34 PM ^
Except that it's not. If Michigan loses on Saturday but somehow sweeps the BiG, it would be a great year and everyone would be happy.
September 18th, 2014 at 12:40 PM ^
@pkatz - by your definition every game left on the schedule is the most important game of his career.....he has to win most of them and it would be best if he didn't lose to OOC opponents.
September 18th, 2014 at 1:57 PM ^
thought process. I don't think Utah is Hoke's most important game, nor do I think he needs to win every game.
I do, think, however, Hoke needs to have the team show improvement each week towards a competitive B1G run, or otherwise DB is going to have quite the difficult decision on his hands regarding cutting bait or allowing Hoke to coach his recruits as upperclassmen.
September 19th, 2014 at 3:35 PM ^
I'm of the mind that if you can't beat the weaker teams on the schedule, you aren't showing improvement. He's got to win tomorrow and if there are to be losses, they have to be tough fought games against our toughest opponents - and we don't know how good ND is as of yet.
September 18th, 2014 at 12:55 PM ^
I think, at least here, "biggest" and "most important" aren't necessarily the same thing and I would argue that this game is neither. MSU and OSU are certainly bigger games and more important to hoke keeping his job. A loss to Utah would probably be forgiven with win over MSU or [especially] OSU; hopefully both.
September 18th, 2014 at 1:16 PM ^
The fact that he allowed Miami (NTM) to "hang around" into the 2nd half, might just be enough for them to allow him on their coaching staff next year when he's looking for a job
/ s I think????
September 18th, 2014 at 12:06 PM ^
September 18th, 2014 at 1:36 PM ^
No to the idea, double no for the unnecessary comma.
September 18th, 2014 at 1:39 PM ^
Where, did the comma, in the headline, come from?
September 18th, 2014 at 12:18 PM ^
To you sir.
September 18th, 2014 at 2:18 PM ^
... let the season play out.
After the Alabama game I told all of the SEC people down here to wait and I would gladly reschedule that game in 2015.
OP you are absolutely correct we are going to have an excellent team coming into the year. We will have a second year OC with huge upside and all of the QBs, albeit young but fully immersed in his system, a fully recruited team that meets the criteria Mattison wanted and Hoke is the architect of this.
I believe we ARE trending in the right direction and all of this board's daily and weekly nitpicking, "sky is falling" is getting old.
I frickin' hate losing but you can't lose sight of where we are going.
September 18th, 2014 at 3:00 PM ^
we really don't know where we're at or where we're going--even at this stage--four years in. It seems like we should by now.
September 19th, 2014 at 10:43 AM ^
and it doesn't seem like we know where we are going (except towards irrelevancy). That is the only thing that is clear to me. After the ND game, my spirit was finally broken. I don't understand how people can be so optimistic still.
September 18th, 2014 at 11:27 AM ^
No, but it's the 2nd biggest game of the season so far.
September 18th, 2014 at 11:27 AM ^
The sky is not falling.
September 18th, 2014 at 11:28 AM ^
You say that now, if we lose, I will have to shut down the internet for a while. Could get out of control
September 18th, 2014 at 12:20 PM ^
No doubt. The very same people here stating that, to them at least, it's not a big deal will be the very same people calling for Hoke's firing, Brandon's firing, hiring Jim Harbaugh, etc., etc....
September 18th, 2014 at 1:10 PM ^
Thing is, by now people already have their minds made up on whether or not they think Hoke should go or if we should give him more time. Any loss will cause the former to grab their torches and pitchforks while the latter pull out their 2010 recruiting profiles and point to the absense of OL prospects.
Personally I'm just tired of hearing about "toughness" week in and out and then flipping on my TV on Saturdays and the only toughness I see is that of our QB's ribs. My heart goes out to these kids when I see them give it their all and then see the coaching staff mail it in in the 2nd half vs. Notre Dame or punt from the 37 vs. NTM. Then we as fans get called out for not supporting the troops...
If I'm being 100% honest I couldn't care less if Hoke or RR or Jim Harbaugh is running our program so long as they do it honestly, look after the kids' best interests, and win football games; in that order. Hoke has, to my knowlege, checked the first 2 boxes. If he can start producing wins then I'm good.
September 18th, 2014 at 1:24 PM ^
I can't say a victory would be a mind changer for me as far as confidence in Hoke, therefore a loss probably wouldn't change much for me either. Honestly, that game that has a chance of changing things for me.......isn't going to be played in Ann Arbor
September 18th, 2014 at 1:50 PM ^
I really hope i guess the score rights...i need that shirt. perfect garb for times like these
September 18th, 2014 at 4:00 PM ^
After losing 31-0 to ND, do you think a 1 point loss to Utah is really going to stir up the torch and pitchforks? I don't think so. If it starts a snowball effect of losing--then shiznit will hit the fan.
September 18th, 2014 at 11:30 AM ^
No, not even close. In fact, you could argue that this is the least important game of the season. It's not a conference game, and of the four non-conference games, ND was a rivalry game and the other two would have been truly catastrophic if we had lost.
September 18th, 2014 at 12:06 PM ^
I see where the OP is coming from. Given what's happened over Hoke's tenure, yeah, you could argue this is the biggest game of his career. He's hanging on by a thread here on the ol' job security front. If he loses to a bottom tier Pac-12 team at home, then that bodes really poorly for the rest of the season, and I just don't see him recovering from it.
September 18th, 2014 at 12:20 PM ^
You're nuts. He is not hanging on by a thread. Michigan is fine, and is getting stronger week by week.
September 18th, 2014 at 12:27 PM ^
I would say Michigan is definitely not fine. They've been below their own standards for quite a while and this team hasn't shown any sort of "getting stronger" at any point in the last couple of seasons.
I mean goddamn people, are we really content with 8-4 being OK?