OT: More impressive, George Mason '06, VCU '11 or Butler '10 or '11
Which is more impressive of a tourney run, George Mason '06, VCU '11, Butler '10 or '11?
George Mason Tourney Run: 6th Seed Mich State (Final Four Participant in '05), defending champs North Carolina, Witchita St, and number 1 overall seed UConn lost in semi-final.
VCU: First five game: 11 seed USC, 6 seed G'town, 3 seed Purdue, 10 seed Florida State, 1 seed Kansas, in final four vs Butler '11.
Butler '10: 12 seed UTEP, 13 seed Murray St. 1 seed Syracuse, 2 seed Kansas St, 5 seed Michigan State, half court shot away from beating Duke in National Championship game.
Buter '11: 9 seed Old Dominon, 1 seed PItt, 4 seed Wisconsin, 2 seed Florida, in Final Four vs VCU.
Butler '10&'11.
Butler back-to-back, no doubt. Butler's run this year alone competes with either of the other two, but doing it in consecutive years takes the cake.
Yup. Back-to-Back Final Fours is tough for any program. To do it at Butler is incredible.
I don't think the question was Butler '10 and '11, it was Butler '10 or '11.
So if we are looking at individual seasons, neither of Butler's Final Fours were shocking. Last year they were a 5 seed and certainly a top 20 team in terms of talent and season long performance. This year's Butler run is fairly shocking, given the loss of Heyward and a ho-hum regular season, but anytime a final four team from a year ago makes it again, it can't be a huge shock. Plus, they had a terrible region, one of the worst ever, so it was fairly wide open.
The fact that George Mason and VCU were both 11 seeds makes their runs more impressive. But Mason was arguably underseeded at an 11 seed in '06 based on the margin of victory rankings that are good predictors of sleepers and future outcomes. VCU really came out of nowhere. They truly had no business being in this tournament based on regular season performance and they have been huge underdogs (not just by seed but by vegas odds, which are a highly accurate predictor long-run). They do have some impressive talent, Skeen in particular has a good shot in the NBA, but nothing about their regular season performance indicated this was coming.
VCU has been the most shocking.
George Mason, like VCU, were criticized for not being deserving to be in the NCAA tourney. Both promptly made a big run to the Final Four.
Ironically, both are from the CAA, both were 11 seeds, both Final Fours did not have any number 1 seeds in it.
March 27th, 2011 at 10:37 PM ^
They did beat the #1 seed, the #4 seed, and the #2 seed to make the Final 4. Beating seeds that strong doesn't happen very often. Granted, those teams were Pitt, Wisky, and Florida, all chronic tourney underachievers, and probably the worst of the 1, 2, and 4 seeds. I assume that's what you mean by a terrible region.
I can't discount Butler's achievement very much for that, though. Those teams were overseeded by maybe 1 ranking each - still pretty good.
I still agree that VCU's run is more incredible, though. I didn't pick them to get out of the first four, which shows what I know, much less make the Final 4. Interesting that two of those wins came against, yes, chronic tourney underachievers Purdue and Kansas.
is considered to be the 2nd best #1 seed. Wisconsin is excellent. Florida is a solid team. Butler had to play against the #6, #7 and #16 team in KenPom ratings which tells you that Butler did run through the gauntlet to get to the Final 4.
March 28th, 2011 at 11:32 AM ^
Maybe they were considered to be the 2nd #1 seed, but they really ended the season poorly. Going back to the regular season, they finished 4-4 in their last 8 games. Of the #1 seeds, that's the team I would have most wanted to play.
March 28th, 2011 at 10:42 AM ^
Florida has underachieved in the tourney but they also were back to back champions a few years ago, so I'm not sure that's really a fair characterization.
March 28th, 2011 at 11:42 AM ^
Florida baffles me. The Gators went to the finals in 2000 and then won those titles back to back. Arguably they have a better claim on team of the last decade than, say, Duke, UNC, UConn, or MSU, right?
And yet... and yet... no. There doesn't seem to be any sustained success. When you think top-5 college coaches, Billy Donovan does not come to mind. They were 2-3 in the tournament from 2003-2005, getting beat by Manhattan in the first round in '04. Then the back to back titles. The Gators promptly followed that amazing triumph with two years in the NIT. BYU beat them in the first round in '10.
In other words, while I think Donovan is a decent coach, I also think he struck gold with a good class and a freak athlete in Noah. I'm certaintly happy for Butler, who should be extremely proud of what they'd accomplished already, and I was impressed with their second half comeback against a talent-superior (on paper at least) team. That said, I was with a lot of people who weren't shocked that the Bulldog's won.
Then, what do I know? I picked Pitt to win that region, not because I loved their chances in a generic bracket, but because I couldn't see anyone else with a good shot at knocking them off!
Butler in the consecutive years I think, but if VCU makes it to the NC game, I could say them mostly because they had to go through a play in game, which people thought they didn't even derserve to be in.
that George Mason deserves to be in NCAA tourney either.
VCU pretty much dominated NCAA tourney with the exception of FSU game which is a grind. Kansas game, it wasn't a dominant win but more than good enough game to beat Kansas at a decent margin.
Butler's run to 2 consecutive trips to Final Four is more impressive because it's so hard to make it to final 4 much less 2 consecutive years. They did it as a mid-major program.
Butler for sure. To do it again without Heyward really shocked me.
I don't think it's fair to compare two seasons to one, so let's stick to individual seasons. I'll go with VCU because that First Four game is a significant disadvantage. It meant that they had to play three games in five days to get to the Sweet 16, with the second one coming against a rested opponent.
They proved it could be done for everyone else.
It's like once the 4 minute mile was broken, lot's of guys started doing it. You knew it could be done. It may be hard and take some figuring out, but you know it's doable.
George Mason '06 had nothing to guide them. There was nothing comparable since Penn in 1979, and that was a different world.
I think the only way VCU or Butler could become the automatic top of this list is if either one happens to win the NC game, because that was the only place George Mason didn't get to. We know at least one of them will be in the finals...let's see if they can beat UCONN or Kentucky (whoever it happens to be). They certainly have a great chance to do so.
Butler has been a good program for a few years now, a common invitee to the tournament before last year's great run. I don't know how important the players Butler lost from last year's team were but many who are returning were quite important to last year's success and they know how to win. Plus, I have a great deal of respect for their coach Brad Stevens,who has been with the program for many years, as head coach since 2007.
VCU on the other hand is fairly new to Final Four success, let alone five in a row; if you haven't been here before, if you haven't done it before, it's going to be a tough row to hoe to win even a couple in a row, let alone five. Butler, while listed as a 'Mid-Major' is more Major than Mid; they have been involved in the last 4 Final Fours, going a pretty gaudy 8-4 to boot.
"I don't know how important the players Butler lost from last year's team were but many who are returning were quite important to last year's success and they know how to win.
"
Gordon Heyward ring a bell for you? A player who is a lottery pick?
Sad probably, but I couldn't name one player on last year or this year's Butler team. Wow, a lottery pick! A pick somewhere, yeah I might have expected that, but a lottery pick I wouldn't have guessed. Now that the Pistons are down in the dumps, I haven't been attuned to the NBA much.
Does Larry Sanders ring a bell for you?
lost Eric Maynor who is drafted in 1st round 2 years ago. Larry Saunders didn't get drafted in the lottery, he got drafted a spot after the lottery which is close enough.
Butler lost two starters and they were pretty important. Gordon Heyward was their best player and a lottery pick in last year's NBA draft. Willie Veasley (who now plays in Japan) was a critical defender that, like Heyward, could guard almost anyone. Their struggles early this season were almost entirely related to defense. They've found a way to make up for those losses.
lost Avery Jukes who is a supersub off the bench.
Butler figured out on how to defend. Roland Nored is probably the best on-the-ball defender in the country but he can't score to save his life. Matt Howard stopped being a foul prone which helps.
VCU won 5 straight to get in. Beat the BE, B10, ACC, and B12 to do so.
Butler's also done an impressive job, and so did George Mason, but winning those 5 games in a row narrowly gives VCU the advantage over Butler's "3 close games in 4" run.
I'm hoping to see VCU take down Kentucky in the final to become the first team to win 7 games for the championship, sweeping the big 6 conferences along the way.
But Butler '10 and '11 seasons are straight-up phenomenal. Xavier's run of 3 straight Sweet 16s (to go along with the XU-KState thriller last year), even though I'm not sure if you could classify our program a mid-major anymore, are pretty incredible too for a school with about 5,000 students.
I'm going with Butler, although they have some good talent - think a couple of their kids are headed to the NBA.
It is hard to make the Final Four once - you can get hot and have a run like Mason did, but to do it twice is a real accomplishment. Two years in a row, with kids leaving early, that is an accomplishment for any team.
Each season independently I say George Mason is tops... but if you talk about a run (two seasons) what Butler has done is unsurpassed (even if Butler had much more basketball history than the other two programs easily)
Butler was, I want to say a four seed last year and an eight this year, which makes their tournament run less surprising, but I think more impressive. Putting together four (or for VCU five) straight wins is more an indication of a hot streak than a good team. Putting together a team year in and year out that is competative with the big boys comign out of the Horizon League, which is what Butler has done over a decade, but especially the last year, is a lasting legacy.
If you look at each run seperately VCU is tops. They had to win 5 games and blew out each team they played with the exception of FSU.
March 27th, 2011 at 11:14 PM ^
Sorry George Mason, but you went 4-1 to make the Final Four and you beat Wichita State (....) and one of the worst MSU teams in recent memory to make it there. Once there, you got handled by Florida. A fantastic run no doubt, but no comparison to the other three in question.
Butler of this year is out because they can't top VCU of this year's run. VCU shouldn't have even made the tournament. They were probably the last team in. They had an extra game due to the play in game to even make the Sweet Sixteen. They played the #2 overall seed in the tournament and won fairly easily, much like they did every game but Florida State. I'm in disbelief that this team is still alive. As impressive as Butler's run has been, it came in a weaker region, with one less game.
So only Butler of last year can top it, but keep in mind, they made the final as a #5 seed. If VCU beats Butler and makes the final, then they take the Most Improbable Mid-Major crown, hands down.
March 27th, 2011 at 11:52 PM ^
VCU is by far the most impressive because they have been blowing away some of these big-name opponents, not eeking out wins like Butler this year (or even last year). Outside of the 1-point win against FSU in the Elite 8, they've won by double-digits against everybody. I'm incredibly impressed by them, even though I think they'll probably lose to Butler on Saturday.
March 28th, 2011 at 12:48 AM ^
When you play defense like Butler, you have a chance to win it all. I think they were lucky that Florida didn't even look like the same team that beat BYU, but Butler's defense has to take some of the "credit," too.
If both teams lose their next game, I'll still take VCU. If Butler wins it all, though, then it would have to be the most impressive accomplishment.