OT: Is little league baseball dying or thriving?
I'm currently in Florida for my 11 year old's final travel baseball tournament of the season. A dad from another team was commenting on how "park ball" has given way to these specialized travel tournaments because fewer kids are now playing little league, and that in general baseball culture is slowly dying with kids these days. Here in the south I don't know that I see baseball slipping away like that, but it makes me wonder about how things are going in the north (where I used to live) or just in general. What do the rest of you think? Does baseball no longer hold the place it once did among kids in America?
I've noticed the same thing. We have a large open field behind our house, and I never see pick- up games being played there. I occassionally see pick-up 2 on 2 or 3 on 3 basketball in someone's driveway, but when I was a kid, back in the 60's we had pick-up baseball, basketball, football (one time we even had enough to play 11 on 11 football), red rover, and hockey in the winter. We didn't have uniforms or proper equipment for the most part, often a wide range of ages and skills, but we had a lot of fun, and we learned a lot about working things out together, compromising, and being creative with solutions to make up for the lack of facilities and structure.
You never see kids out side, period.
Their parents buy them computers, iPhones, XBox, they have 400 cable TV channels, and everyone seems to be afraid that there's always some pervert hiding in the bushes just waiting to snatch THEIR kid.
The whole "go outside and play" thing has also given way to helicopter parents who won't let their kids just play a sport, for fear of pickup games ruining their chances to get a major league contract (since the pretext of ALL these travel and select leagues is that YOUR kid will have a better chance to make ti to The Show LOL)
Not to mention the strange desire to be Super Soccer Mom and have your kid doing 878 things you have to load up your mini van and drive to, while eating constantly and wondering why your husband is out fucking his secretary.
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it all depends on where you live. I have 2 sons in LL and coach a team. We have a ton of interest and a lot of players. Also have the option to compete in 4 different tournaments within a 20 mile radius of our hometown. I'd say it is definitely thriving in my area
My oldest son played travel baseball for about nine years and it was a great expereince for both him and our family. I read something several years ago that little league has suffered from their being are fewer casual baseball players than in my generation (played from early 70's to early 80s) because the kids that are into baseball are WAAAAY into baseball (in terms private lessons, best/most expensive equipment, etc.) which kind of ruins the experience for the kids who are less rabid. If you think about it, baseball is the one sport where a kid's individual failure (striking out, missing balls in field, issuing a ton of walks) is on display front and center for the whole world to see which can be quite discouraging and embarassing. The one thing I noticed w/ my kids growing up is that the less athletic younger kids seemed to gravitate to soccer since even if they just stood there and flailed at the ball when it came near them a few times a game they could still feel like they were making a contribution. Now of course these kids got weeded out after a few years as well.
This is so true. Baseball tends to be a slow game, but when the kids can't hit, catch or throw, it's painfully slow, and what kid wants to hang around for that? At least in soccer, you can run around and kick a ball every so often. It actually feels like you're doing something even if you're not one of the best players on the team. It's more inclusive in that way.
Around me anyway, the leagues are still there and they are still going strong, but as others have said, the cost now if you're serious about it is pretty high and I think pursuing it to that level - travel laegues or organized school teams and so forth - tends to make little league almost like a gateway 100-level course in some places. When I played, most schools still didn't charge for participation and rates weren't that bad, so those leagues were a little more visible, I think. It seems like there is a drop in casual play of baseball - we did that a lot as kids, whereas now I don't see neighborhood baseball games just happen.
Minecraft and Halo have cornered the recreational time market.
Someone help me understand what in the holy fuck these kids get out of Minecraft? I've never been so confused by anything in my life. This is worse than Pokemon. I love me some Mario Bros and Donkey Kong, but this Minecraft horseshit does not register!
is not a whole lot of room for imagination left in this world right now. Minecraft provides that. It is open-ended. It tells whatever story the player wants it to tell, and there are no borders in the game, no time when they have to stop, and "winning" and "losing" are not a factor. Too much Minecraft is a bad thing. Minecraft as part of a balanced child's life is completely fine and I think even beneficial.
(You are correct though, it is bizarre to watch when you first encounter it).
I honestly want to thank you. That is a really well thought answer and actually makes a lot of sense to me. Once again MGOBLOG adds value and harmony to my family dynamic!
problem. Always happy to help.
It looked stupid to me. Then his class had a Jamestown project and he built the whole village. It was really neat. He has since built skyscrapers, airports, boats, etc. And it has been fun to watch as his sense of scale and proportion have improved. I would rather him play Minecraft than almost any other video game. Plus it has lasted. He started when he was 7 or 8 and still plays it some at age 11.
It still looks stupid to me, but I actually think it has some value.
Common core math doesn't register either.
FWIW, Common Core math doesn't exist as you probably think it does. "Common Core" is a set of standards, not a curriculum.
http://www.corestandards.org/Math/
Don't believe the Facebook memes that get thrown around.
it is a set of standards or a curriculum, it is a fiasco and makes it impossble to help kids with their "math."
^^^ This * 100000
Where the kids are intentionally trying to lose games so the don't make the playoffs because the dads are getting drunk and fighting in the stands. (Sorry couldn't resist. One of my all time favorite episodes)
I thought this was America?
Go to Harbaugh's camp than play baseball.
Baseball is 100% on a downward trajectory. I am not saying it will be dead anytime soon, but I am a high school teacher and I talk to kids. Kids like football, soccer, basketball.....it is difficult to find a high school kid who likes the MLB.
Our soccer and basketball teams easily have enough kids to fill out a team and have cuts. Our baseball team has to bribe kids to join so they have enough players. I've heard kids say that they wanted to play on a varsity team during their high school experience, so they chose baseball, since everyone is guaranteed to earn a letter.
Baseball is slower paced in a fast paced society.
a combination of things. You can't get the feel for a baseball game on TV, players are moved so regularly in the MLB that it is hard to develop an attachment to teams, players are so ethnically diverse that sometimes your average Mike from the suburbs kind of feels alienated from the game, it takes FOREVER to play a game. There are a lot of factors, but I don't think attendance is hurting at this point from what I understand.
"players are so ethnically diverse that sometimes your average Mike from the suburbs kind of feels alienated from the game"
MLB still has 63.9% of its players as white. The NFL has 27.7% of its players as white. Yet the NFL is very popular among white suburbs. I don't think it is racial diversity that is hurting the MLB. In fact, I think it helps. Hispanic kids are far more likely to tell me that they like MLB than white kids, but even there it is a minority of them.
While it may not impact viewership or youth play, I've heard from at least one minor league player that ethnic separation is very real in the minor leagues (especially lower levels). Latin players stick together and don't associate much with white/black players. I'm sure the language barrier has a part in this, but it may not be the only factor.
That's an odd concept to me, being on a team where you don't associate with your teammates.
Baseball is 100% on a downward trajectory. I am not saying it will be dead anytime soon, but I am a high school teacher and I talk to kids. Kids like football, soccer, basketball.....it is difficult to find a high school kid who likes the MLB. Our soccer and basketball teams easily have enough kids to fill out a team and have cuts. Our baseball team has to bribe kids to join so they have enough players. I've heard kids say that they wanted to play on a varsity team during their high school experience, so they chose baseball, since everyone is guaranteed to earn a letter. Baseball is slower paced in a fast paced society.Meh, so much subjective, anecdotal evidence in this comment. Where I coach, the baseball program has more kids in it than the lacrosse program. I teach kids that love baseball, love MLB and know just as much about it as me. Maybe, for whatever reason, baseball is struggling at your school. Doesn't mean it is struggling everywhere. For what it's worth, I think baseball has actually leveled out, or straight up recovered from the dip it had about 5-10 years ago in the SE Michigan area. A lot probably has to do with the decade of competence for the Tigers, plus the age of social media and increased baseball/softball exposure on ESPN. Look at the attention the college world series get on ESPN. BTN has also helped get some exposure to those sports. In this area, there was a dip in baseball participation when lacrosse was introduced in all the schools, but, like I said, I think that decline has leveled off. Really, all sports (maybe with the exception of basketball) have experienced dips with the increase in specialization.
If you want more objective facts here you go:
Saturday Baseball TV ratings are in sharp decline.
Youth participation in baseball is in decline.
MLB has the oldest median-age fan base and is failing to connect with younger sports fans.
Look, I am not saying Baseball is dead or will die within the next 20 years, but there are detrimental issues that are obvious.
I don't think this is a problem (AAU coach here). It just provides more options. The larger problem I feel is the FOLO - fear of loosing out. If I as a parent don't sign my kid up for the higher level club teams, will I be limiting his potential? Will he not make his high school team? I think is parents over think this.
My 15 y/o son is awesome. He plays up for both football and basketball, was team captain. But he isn't going to UM. His involvement in travel probably helped get him to this next level, but without it he'd still be doing well enough on his high school team.
He wanted the opportunity to play more. We didn't push him. I also talked with him so many times about his goals for playing - not NFL prep, but for challenging himself and love of the game.
I feel that how the parent deals with these leagues is critical to the potential success of the child.
And they are NOT mandatory.
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I blame a lot of this on the mid 90's baseball strike. It caused a generation to have a distaste for the game and we're about 1 generation removed from that happening. So the parents of kids these days aren't nearly as invested in baseball as the pervious generations were.
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For me it was soccer and basketball. I was in LL because my dad wanted me there, but I just wasn't all that invested in it. Another thing that doesn't help is the games. They just drag on. I love going to the park and enjoying a game, but I just can't make myself sit down and watch it on tv. Kind of like Golf. I love drowning some golf balls, but there's absolutely no reason I can think of why I would want to watch it on tv.
I think this is likely what the issue is for youth baseball. It used to be the default sport and everyone played it up until the time that they went in a different direction (whether that was another sport or no sports). Now it seems like that default sport has increasinbly become soccer.
But pro baseball attendance and viewership are higher than ever, so I can't agree. Numbers are down for youth participation in the US and it has to do with soccer, lacrosse, et. al - just other activities are getting equal or greater participation.
Not sure I'd push my kids into any sport in particular per se (they're too young anyway) but I certainly will not push baseball or softball.
in little league as I do in soccer for ~5 year olds, so it's not dying in the North
Kids have so many other options and other sports are gaining on them a little.
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In Evanston, little league is pretty popular up through 5th grade. Then participation drops drastically. At that point, if you're serious about playing, you try out for travel. Some kids are already in travel, as it starts in 3rd grade. But our travel program is really geared towards development. When my son played, there were three teams at his age level, with players broken out by skill level.
Someone mentioned that you almost never see kids playing pick up games in the park anymore. I think that is so true. When we were kids, my brother was always playing some form of baseball in the park in the summer. The only time I see kids playing outside of their leagues now is with a parent, and they're usually just throwing.
I've noticed that most of the kids who play baseball (and softball) have parents who played at some level. To continue to improve, I think you need to be throwing outside of practice, so the kids who play catch with their parents are most likely to stay in it.
"he only time I see kids playing outside of their leagues now is with a parent, and they're usually just throwing."
I have to wonder if a major part of that now, though, is the increasingly small number of public parks that have baseball fields. I can't think of very many (they are all at the private little leagues, for the most part) and live in a baseball hotbed.
YES! How many parks do you see around? How many of these parks have baseball fields? Parks, and public spaces in general, aren't a priority in the USA like they are in Europe.
I think a large part of it is due to the helicopter parenting syndrome. From an early age, parents are deciding what their kids are going to play, and when, and for how long. I remember one nanny (a nanny, no less) who would dictate how long the kids could play any given game or activity. She was around 24, very certain of everything, and declared that she never let the kids play more than 30 minutes of any activity. So when people talk about how kids don't go out and just play any more, that's probably why. Hopefully it will swing back the other way. My parents gave me free reign; there was no organized play structure. The whole thing today is very weird.
Yeah, for sure a component. Fortunately it will swing back; that's just how generational dynamics work.
I was on the board of our local baseball association for many years. Our numbers from 10 years ago are down 15-20%. The larger causes have been twofold - one, lacrosse; two, larger share of local population from different heritages that value other activities or are less wealthy and not able to pay for organized activities.
A few guys are ruing the sport by holding big tourneys everyweek in nothing but a big money grab. Everybody has to play on a travel team anymore to be something.
Let them go back to playing in their own neighborhoods a couple of time a week. People get tired and broke setting all weekend a few hours from home
There are some major differences between LL and travel that put LL at a disadvantage (or make it less attractive).
As a travel coach (9U-11U), I don't like the stealing. It means a kid on first will be on third within two pitches. Every player steals, no matter the circumstances. For a baseball purist, or someone who grew up in a previous era, that's a put-off. However, by 11U (and more likely 12U), the catchers are developing and beginning to throw out runners, so they don't steal as often.
Nevertheless, stealing is a part of the game. To make a player stay on the base until the ball crosses the plate is somewhat unnatural, and opens the possibility of players leaving early, etc. It also delays the development of pitchers, who need to learn to hold runners and avoid balks.
In 12U LL, the base distance is 60 feet. In 11/12U travel, it's 70 feet. In 9/10U travel, it's 65 feet (which about makes it about even with LL, if you're taking a 5-foot lead).
In 12U LL, the pitching distance is 46 feet, which is the same as 9/10U travel. In 11/12U travel, the distance moves to 50 feet. This makes sense, as the boys are growing, getting stonger, and throwing harder. To have these LL "phenoms" (like Chris Drury, Danny Almonte, or Mo'ne Davis) pitching "70 mph" from 46 feet is ridiculous.
In 12U LL, the minimum outfield fence distance is 200 feet; this was the distance of Lamade Stadium in Williamsport through 2006, at which time the fence was extended to 225 feet because home runs were becoming too common (Wikipedia); if you've ever watched the LLWS, about every other hit is a HR, which just isn't realistic. Travel fields aren't as regulated, but our 11U field is 200 feet (and is one of the smallest we've played on this year), and kids are hitting balls off the fence with regularity. I can't imagine how many HRs we'd see playing in the same bandbox at 12U.
LL/rec ball serves a purpose, as does travel.