Michigan ranked #21 in new USNews Rankings, highest all-time

Submitted by Real Tackles Wear 77 on September 20th, 2023 at 8:31 PM

The title says it all. The 2023-24 US News national universities rankings came out this week, and Michigan reached its highest point yet at #21, 3rd among public universities. 

Educators have taken issue with these rankings, and some universities have stopped participating altogether, but they remain the gold standard in their space and it's pretty nice to see the stature of UM growing.

For context, Notre Dame is at 20 and Georgetown is 22, while UVA is the next public school at 24 - not bad company at all.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities?_mode=table

Jack Be Nimble

September 20th, 2023 at 8:50 PM ^

It's just not accurate to call the rankings "absolute bullshit." Like virtually any measurement, there have been and will continue to be attempts to game them, and the ranking criteria could certainly be refined and improved, but the rankings are still very good at measuring what they are trying to measure.

It's undeniable that the US News rankings are a very effective measurement of the relative prestige of different institutions in America's collegiate hierarchy. Say whatever you like about the existence of this hierarchy, but it does exist, and the US News provides accurate and useful information to readers about its structure.

evenyoubrutus

September 20th, 2023 at 8:55 PM ^

In my experience as a small business owner in the AA area, I employed dozens of college students at any given time for almost 10 years. In my personal experience, and I say this as someone with extreme prejudice towards the university of Michigan, WCC students were far more intelligent and harder working than the typical UM student. Not necessarily because the WCC student was "smarter." It was often simply because the community college kid had a drive to learn and gain experience, while the UM student only was looking for a resume builder for their grad school application. 

When it came to plain old intelligence, it was indiscernible. Being able to read a textbook and get a good grade on a test gets you a very short distance in the real world.

Jack Be Nimble

September 20th, 2023 at 9:01 PM ^

That's interesting. I'm definitely not going to tell you your experience is wrong, but my personal experience is precisely the opposite. In my career so far in my field, the smartest people I have met have all been graduates of precisely the sort of graduate schools that you would expect. People don't like to say it, but the truth is really high test scores and GPAs really do correlate pretty strongly with success in many fields.

 

evenyoubrutus

September 20th, 2023 at 9:05 PM ^

Some professions require intense educational training and others are more suited for on the job training, and yet the vast majority have the same educational requirements. I blame it on HR departments and misdirected maternal energy putting unrealistic emphasis on credentials and resumes as a way to weed out applicants and make their jobs easier. Both of us- likely representing vastly different vocations- could be correct. It all depends on what you decide to study in college.

Buy Bushwood

September 21st, 2023 at 7:30 AM ^

True, health care for instance:  Who needs their doctor to have been trained by accredited institutions whose training is under constant scrutiny by regulatory agencies and who have to pass multiple levels of certification exams testing their knowledge?  Or pilots, why train, credential and rectify them?  On the job training for all!   

JacquesStrappe

September 21st, 2023 at 1:41 AM ^

I don’t know how old you are or what field you are in, but in my experience the older you get the more you begin to appreciate qualities in addition to raw intellect and processing speed as drivers of success and achievement in most fields or functions that have multi-dimensional elements to them. Raw IQ/test scores or GPAs can be necessary but not sufficient conditions for success. But, outside of highly academic or technical disciplines, being relatable, having humility and listening skills, open-mindedness, grit, and sincerity are at least as important as brains because the world is one big network and the better conduit you are, the more likely you are to serve as a trusted node.  The smartest people don’t have monopoly on this prowess. 

Jack Be Nimble

September 21st, 2023 at 7:29 PM ^

I am not sure what you are referring to here, but I am always happy to provide data. The points I'm making are quite narrow and, I think, quite straightforward:

1) There is an academic hierarchy in America where the smartest young students mostly go to certain schools. 2) The US News is a useful source for information on the structure of this hierarchy. 3) Test scores and GPAs, the measures upon which this hierarchy is based, are strong predictors of success in many fields.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/05/20/heres-how-much-your-high-school-grades-predict-how-much-you-make-today/

MGlobules

September 21st, 2023 at 2:07 PM ^

But why is that? Surely--if you're so smart--you know that may not only be a result of their high test scores and GPAs. 

To buttress this. When I got out of college, I wanted to work in publishing. Friends sent me to the Beacon Hill, Boston office of the (then) most eminent book reviewer in the country, a friend of theirs. When I asked how he got into publishing, he was honest. "When I graduated from Harvard, my father took me to lunch to meet the editor of the NY Times." 

I got a lot of work myself on the strength of being an M grad, of people I studied with, etc. Yeah, I was smart--a poor kid who got a Michigan Competitive Scholarship (no longer offered, alas), who would not have gone to Michigan without that boost. (I was so happy I got out of bed and remembered to walk down the road to Huron High School to take the test that morning, I can't tell you. Because my divorced and distracted dad wasn't going to provide that function.) 

But to think that the many, many contacts and rep that came with the sheepskin weren't part of the whole iterative context of my successes/opportunities to fail would just be bunk. . . I see SO MANY smart people denied opportunities now. So many young people who know--at 20--that they're never going to own a house, be able to retire, find very gratifying work. . . To sit and pretend that everyone who's succeeding is doing it because they had the opportunity to take tests, prep, whatever, because they're innately superior. . . courts essentialist silliness to ask people to swallow. And from what I see currently in this country, they're not swallowing.  

MGlobules

September 22nd, 2023 at 11:34 AM ^

It isn't "the smartest kids." It's smart kids who have had good luck. They happen to fall into certain very obvious strata of the SES. Their ability to perform on tests, their motivation go far, far beyond testing. Let me tell you about all the children who--nowadays--enter kindergarten so damaged that they can hardly be kept in their seats. As schools fall, increasingly, on two sides of a yawning divide. 

If you're reducing the prospects of America's youth to a banality--as freighted with hoohoo--as "smart," you may be on the wrong track, anyway. The skills and competencies and emotional fortitude required to right this country's ship tomorrow may go beyond such a nicety. The US News ranks are a bollocks, but thankfully they've removed such outright stupid measures as 'giving of alumni,' and 'what college presidents think' from the calculous. Ingenuousness is not just the province of the great unwashed!

What universities are looking for, in the end, and what most schools reward, is willing  attentiveness to what a certain established order wishes them to absorb. Starting with sitting quietly in a seat. Teacher John Taylor Gatto is insightful about this. There's a reason inner city schools still look like factories.   

EDIT: Those who succeed, in whatever measure, are OF COURSE going to want to believe that they earned it or were superior. That doesn't mean that they were. I'd imagine that all those demanding evidence-based models for assertions here can figure that out. Even if they don't like it. :) The more fatuous the insistence on superiority, the more likely the logic is to be pure garbage; the 19 c. robber barons made the same kind of claims. We're in a similar period. 

Buy Bushwood

September 20th, 2023 at 10:53 PM ^

The only way I would believe this would be if your “small business” were a Dominoes Pizza or a Starbucks.   For 20 years I’ve worked with medical professionals from every rank in life and everything from Stanford-educated physicians to CNA’s from local community colleges.  Guess what?   The Stanford MD’s are quite a bit smarter and more driven than the CNAs. While I’ve worked with brilliant people from lower-tier institutions, on average the higher caliber the school the more intelligent and driven the individual is.  Maybe not delivering your pizzas, but it isn’t just book smarts. 

Ezeh-E

September 21st, 2023 at 8:37 AM ^

You're conflating MDs/graduate degrees with undergraduate degrees. You're also conflating those who made it to the top of their field with the average undergraduate from an institution.

And there's a bit of field conflation here. You don't get into Stanford medical school without crushing your undergrad experience academically, which in the sciences equates to a ton of hard work/time and experience with lab research. But Stanford medical school draws students from a large range of universities...

The majority of the wealthier business people I know got 3.0s at whichever state university was local to them.

Ernis

September 21st, 2023 at 10:22 AM ^

My hunch is the dynamic you’re describing has more to do with the generally greater privilege correlated with UM studentry and the fact that they may be less likely to have to work to support themselves. But if you think the only difference between UM and a community college is test scores, you’re missing the real difference: it is the people. WCC is a good college and lots of talented people go and teach there. UM has the best in their fields for many programs, extremely talented people from all over the world aggregate there, and if you’re a motivated student you learn from them, not just take tests. Just saying. The WCC students might have performed better at your business in the near-term, but what about their respective earnings ceilings 10, 20, 40 years down the road? I would guess there’s a separation there, depending on field of study.

alum96

September 21st, 2023 at 12:06 PM ^

What sort of "field" - just curious.  There is a case for book smart vs street smart in a variety of fields and vice versa.  Probably in a nuclear lab I'd take the UM grad whereas other places I could see your findings completely true.  There is also entitlement amongst those who come from well off families, especially off the northeast of the country.

MI Expat NY

September 20th, 2023 at 9:37 PM ^

No, they are not a very effective measure.  They just modified their criteria and some schools moved 20 spots.  It's not possible for a school to actually be 20 spots different from year to year, so either they were bullshit last year, this year, or both.  

In general, ranking undergraduate institutions is a stupid endeavor.  Most schools, even so called "national universities," have different missions that don't necessarily make one better than another.  Some focus on research, others focus on giving as many state residents a great education as possible, others focus on trying to blend both, etc.  Any ranking system is going to try and apply objective measures to subjective subjects.  This will always be inadequate and based on the value system of the ranker rather than necessarily what the schools are trying to accomplish.  That's ok, and it's generally what people should do when deciding which school is best for them.  The problem is thinking that any one ranking system is objectively meaningful.

I personally think the quality of school should be based on the quality of the entering student body and how hard the students have to work.  I may decide to rank entirely on some combination of incoming students' gpa, test scores, and high school class rank as well as how many kids fail out because they couldn't hack it.  I'd feel pretty good about the ranking, but I wouldn't expect anyone else to consider it meaningful.

MI Expat NY

September 20th, 2023 at 10:49 PM ^

If it were 1500 random data points, sure, but that's not what we're talking about.  The vast majority of schools do not meaningfully compete with each other and none of them frankly change much from year to year.  It's not a football team that may graduate a ton of production with a weak class or two following.  A student body and academic resources are going to be consistent from year to year.  There may be a small trend over the course of several years, but realistically a ranking shouldn't change by more than a spot or two in any given year.  There is no Coach Prime of college Presidents that is going to completely change a school in a single summer.

Eng1980

September 21st, 2023 at 6:35 AM ^

I think you need to take into account that there is very little difference between between one schole and the next school in the rankings.  The difference between #20 and #30 out of 1500 is less than 1% on a scale of 100.  A harsh winter in AA could easily dissuade students and recruiters that their time in AA was ideal.

Jack Be Nimble

September 20th, 2023 at 10:33 PM ^

I appreciate the engagement. I think your response is interesting and nuanced but also misconstrues some common arguments.

I agree that different schools have different focuses, and in that sense, there is no way to say what school is the "best" for a particular person. But that's a far cry from saying the rankings have no value, which is the claim I was responding to.

In fact, as I said earlier, the rankings are really very good at one particular thing: relating the relative prestige of particular institutions in our hierarchy. You can see this in a hundred different ways: the test scores of incoming freshman, the incomes of graduates, the number of alumni in elevated positions in government and industry.

I mean, the list of schools that have law clerks working in the current Supreme Court session is almost literally a list of the US News top ten law schools.

Now, to some extent, this might be a self-fulfilling prophecy. People publish the rankings, other people believe them so they want to go to the high-ranking schools, and then the high-ranking schools get all the smartest young students, which only reinforces their high place in the rankings. Then we repeat. But note that this does not actually support the view that the rankings have no value. If you were a potential student and prestige mattered to you, the rankings would provide useful information. This only means you have to be careful as to what is actually being measured.

People do try to game this system and sometimes they succeed. But some gamesmanship certainly does not prove the rankings are "bullshit."

SC Wolverine

September 21st, 2023 at 2:35 AM ^

Supreme Court clerkships actually skew more severely than you say.  For this year's incoming class, 28 out of 38 came from 4 schools: Yale, Stanford, Harvard, and Chicago.  That is pretty typical.  Hopefully, my son is one of them in two years -- he just graduated from UC and started his first Fed Appellate clerkship.  It's a pretty sweet gig, I can tell you.

ST3

September 20th, 2023 at 9:44 PM ^

There was a lengthy article about how Northeastern’s leadership gamed the system. They were historically ranked around 150. The president (?) found out what went into the rankings. The class size metric looked at how many classes had 20 or more students (lower student:faculty ratio considered a good thing). So the president set the maximum class size at 19. USNews also has a “reputation” metric, so they reached out to other school faculties and asked for them to consider including Northeastern when asked to name other prestigious schools. Alumni giving was a metric, so they increased outreach. Over a few years they improved their ranking to ~50, even though nothing of significance changed.

JMK

September 20th, 2023 at 10:50 PM ^

This is the problem.  I think Jack Be Nimble underestimates the amount of gamesmanship that goes into this and how much it skews and lessens the value of the rankings.  Also, if people used / viewed rankings more intelligently -- for example, seeing schools in the top 10 or top 25 as relatively equal -- then I think the rankings would be less pernicious.  But too many people think that, for example, #7 is better than #8 and way better than #17, etc.  

Jack Be Nimble

September 20th, 2023 at 11:09 PM ^

These are both interesting responses. My reply to wolpherine2000 would be that I completely agree with his second sentence. The US News is a system that simply affirms that elite schools create elite graduates out of elite applicants. It does not measure value-added very well at all.

But note, again, that this does not prove the rankings are useless, only that you should be careful what they are measuring. After all, say you were a student who really wanted to go to a school where you were surrounded by super smart people that you could talk to and bounce ideas off of. The rankings would be a good way to tell where the brightest young people tend to congregate.

To JMK, I think you're correct that people often try to game the system, but I think we can clearly see evidence of the remaining effectiveness of the rankings from the external data. If, say, you were a super ambitious law student who wanted to clerk for a Supreme Court justice, the history of that endeavor seems to demonstrate that there really is a big difference between the #25 ranked law school and the #5 ranked law school.

Ezeh-E

September 21st, 2023 at 8:42 AM ^

I'd argue that changing to much smaller class sizes is of great significance. I wish I knew the higher ed literature better, but it's a huge factor in K-12 education. Participating in a detailed discussion in a 16 person class based on the reading you knew you had to do and spacing out during a lecture in a 400 person class is a major qualitative experience difference.

Romulan Commander

September 21st, 2023 at 10:33 AM ^

It's the USN&WR money maker. Does anybody here read the mag for actual news during the rest of the year?

I like Washington Monthly's rankings, which look at:

"contribution to the public good in three broad categories: social mobility, research, and providing opportunities for public service. We also rank Best Bang for the Buck colleges, which help non-wealthy students obtain marketable degrees at affordable prices."

https://washingtonmonthly.com/2023-college-guide/

Jack Be Nimble

September 20th, 2023 at 8:43 PM ^

I always think of UC-Berkeley, Michigan, and Virginia as the three best public schools in the country, so I was wondering who had passed Michigan and Virginia to make them numbers 3 and 4.

Turns out it's UCLA, which I guess is fine. UCLA has always been a really good school.

b618

September 21st, 2023 at 1:09 AM ^

According to Times Higher Education World University Rankings (a better ranking system then US News), US public universities rank out as (going only so far as Virginia in the list):

8, Berkeley
21, UCLA
23, Michigan
26, U. of Washington
32, UCSD
38, Georgia Tech
48, Illinois
50, UT Austin
63, UC Davis
64, UCSB
69, North Carolina
81, Wisconsin
95, UC Irvine
101, Minnesota
104, Maryland
106, MSU
112, anOSU
127, Purdue
144, Pittsburgh
148, Boulder
151, Florida
151, Penn State
156, ASU
156, Virginia

Phaedrus

September 21st, 2023 at 8:40 AM ^

The problem with the rankings is that they attempt to quantify something that isn’t really quantifiable. Because of this, they pull data from where they can get it instead if where it’s relevant.

One of the biggest problems is that the rankings largely function just like your post. There’s a “reputation metric” which comes from asking school administrators how they feel about other schools. Essentially, it’s like the coach’s poll in college football. Most of these administrators don’t know anything about all but a handful of institutions they’re asked to rank. This means the Ivys are permanently entrenched at the top because it basically ranks the branding of the schools.

The rankings have absolutely nothing to do with the quality of education. In fact, the only thing they can be demonstrated to effectively measure is the wealth of the student bodies. 

Real Tackles Wear 77

September 20th, 2023 at 8:51 PM ^

The US News has zero relevance or meaning in any way, with the exception of their college and graduate school rankings, which are the industry standard. Colleges and alumni care deeply about where they rank in these things despite their flaws.

And perhaps a better opening would be "the title says most of it" but alas, this here site does not appear to allow edits of OP's.