Explaining Alabama, Clemson, Ohio State program dominance. Biggest factors?

Submitted by markusr2007 on November 7th, 2019 at 12:50 PM

Colleagues at work were arguing about how college football is now way less interesting week-to-week than the NFL because of the rise of juggernaut programs that suck all of the life out of the game. There are no more meaningful upsets or surprises. Same teams at the top year on year.

I disagreed, mainly because I hate NFL football. But then this question was asked for which I could formulate no coherent answer.

Was hoping someone could help me explain the reasons "why" and "how".

Is it superior coaching? The recruiting tactics and efficacy? Different admissions standards? Under-the-table benefits?  Combination of all of the above? 

Thanks.

https://www.ncaa.com/history/football/fbs

NittanyFan

November 7th, 2019 at 1:29 PM ^

Yeah, they are close, but personally I'd put USC #3 and Texas #4.

USC does suffer a bit from geography (Pac-12 and West Coast inherently get less attention), and LA sports fans sure can be mercurial.  But get a Pete Carroll type in there and the sky is the limit.  

Maybe it's me, but Texas doesn't seem to be THE school in the state that they were 10-20 years ago.  I don't think the Big XII is helping them either.  It's a step below the SEC & B1G.  They'd be better off in the B1G IMO - the rumor is the 2 have talked over the years.

canzior

November 7th, 2019 at 2:30 PM ^

I think Texas could be...if they get their act together. The entire state is Burnt Orange...and they are public.  USC is private, so at worst I'd switch. 

If Saban leaves Bama, LSU is probably the best job in the SEC. It's too early to say on Ryan Day. He is going to win a lot with Meyer's recruits for 2/3 years. In year 5 or 6, we'll have to see if OSU is the same pull with Day vs Meyer.  Meyer is a legendary recruiter, so a lot of their success the last 8 years and the next 2 HAVE to be attributed to him. 

BlueMk1690

November 7th, 2019 at 1:16 PM ^

Why talk about Alabama or OSU? Those programs have been around the top 10 for many decades with some minor transitional blips in between. Their popularity and structural advantages are well known. Hiring a very good coach like Saban or Meyer will be sufficient to make them elite. The same holds for Texas or the big FL schools or USC. 

The one you should talk about is Clemson. Because Clemson is a bit of an outlier here. The reality here is that they went from being a team with Wisconsin level talent to a team with OSU/Bama type without a readily apparent explanation. In 2011 people would have thought it a bizarre notion that Clemson could outmuscle a Big Ten or SEC team. They were just one of the above average ACC schools that took football more seriously than basketball.

stephenrjking

November 7th, 2019 at 1:29 PM ^

This is a bit harsh on Clemson. They had greater than Wisconsin-level talent and they had a better tradition that included a national title within the living memory of some of us. 

What's interesting about Clemson is that they rose to the top while not recruiting at a top-5 level. Michigan was getting top 5-6 classes under Harbaugh before Clemson every got to that level (seriously, the 16-17 classes that brought us so much talent that we lament isn't being used well? Clemson grades at 11th and 16th for those years. Good average star ranking, yes, but low numbers and nothing that blows you away. 

"PEDs!" one might yell. Well, apparently, yeah. They've had a player get caught. And the fact that their recruiting was only good and not elite for years as they built a national champion does make that revelation... interesting. It's *possible* that they have an extensive PED program that other programs don't...

But I just don't think so. I think PEDs are widespread throughout higher-level college football. If even a pathetic program that hasn't fielded a good team in years and could barely score a touchdown in a winless month of October has key players getting caught using PEDs, it stands to reason that better teams are using them, too. 

maize-blue

November 7th, 2019 at 1:17 PM ^

You got to have a lot of people look the other way on a lot of things. No one can ask questions.

Everyone from the very top of the school administration, professors, coaches, bag men, PED peddlers, press members, etc. all have to be on the same page.

The goal is to win at these institutions and that is it.

ak47

November 7th, 2019 at 1:19 PM ^

College football isn't any more or less dominated than it has been in the past, Florida state had a higher winning percentage in the 90's than Bama does.

DiploMan

November 7th, 2019 at 1:34 PM ^

This.  I disagree with the premise of the OP.  CFB has always had dynasties, punctuated with transition years where there is some chaos.  Miami (YTM) in the late 90s-early 2000s, Nebraska in the 80s and early 90s, Oklahoma in the 70s, Big 2-Little 8, etc (not to mention Yale in the 1880s!).

The reason has always boiled down to money and the various combinations of institutional support/focus in promoting the football program (at the expense of academic standards), coaching, regional advantages (recruiting pool), and luck.

Conversely, it seems to me that the NFL has actively pursued its "any given Sunday" model in pursuit of parity (in spite of the efforts of some franchises -- Lions?  Browns?  Redskins (lately)? -- to prove that model wrong) through its dynamic scheduling, draft rules, salary caps, etc.  I agree that upsets are fun, and that's why I prefer CFB to NFL -- too much player movement and how many real upsets are there in the NFL anyway?  (If they happen all the time, they aren't real upsets).

xtramelanin

November 7th, 2019 at 1:20 PM ^

they are d-i-r-t-y.  money is king.  they have no fear of repercussions.  long-time friend had son playing football at UGA confirmed it, in case all of the other reports and articles didn't help.

Image result for big dollar sign

stephenrjking

November 7th, 2019 at 1:21 PM ^

Alabama, Clemson, and OSU are not the only programs that cheat, assuming (as we all do, as I am confident of) that all three are cheating extensively. Clemson, if anything, has cheated less thoroughly than other major programs; this year is the first that they're really recruiting with the best. 

Programs like Auburn, Ole Miss, Texas, Texas A&M? They cheat too, of course. FSU has put together great, top 5 recruiting classes, players from whom are still on their roster. They're not clean, either.

But FSU and Ole Miss are not good at all. Texas has gone through a period of extended mediocrity despite robust recruiting classes. A&M can't get ahead, and Auburn is a roller coaster.

Bama, Clemson, and OSU have great recruiting AND great coaching. For as much as we dislike our rivals, Urban's performance on tv this fall has hammered home how good he is at what he does. Saban is brilliant. Dabo has assembled a terrific staff. 

They are programs that offer consistent, great coaching. They don't have to change everything about their systems every year. They are tactically advanced and they know how to develop players. This helps them recruit, as well--players who are weighing competing under-the-table offers from those schools against schools like Texas know that if they go to Bama or Clemson or OSU they will have a great chance of winning titles and playing in the NFL. They don't have to cheat more than other schools, just level the playing field, and they will attract more talent.

Yes, they cheat. But so do other programs, almost certainly just as much as them. What sets those schools apart is the coaching and the program efficiency. Take away the cheating and they'd still be top end, because much of what is built is legitimate. 

 

OSUtopia

November 7th, 2019 at 2:52 PM ^

Thank you for responding. I was curious to see what UM fans thoughts were on this issue. I give you credit for at least admitting its possible as opposed to the poster who gave me a down vote for asking the questions. 

In my view, every Power 5 conference school is cheating or has cheated at one time or another. And I'm not talking about "secondary" violations either.

Why cheat? Consider Arizona basketball for example. They have the head coach on record and...................

Red is Blue

November 7th, 2019 at 3:58 PM ^

In my view, every Power 5 conference school is cheating or has cheated at one time or another. And I'm not talking about "secondary" violations either.

Could be, don't know.  But there are levels of cheating.  Even if everyone goes beyond "secondary" violations, doesn't mean they are the same.  Just like murder 1 and tax evasion are both felonies.

buckeyejonross

November 7th, 2019 at 4:10 PM ^

These are the new talking points now? Michigan cheats too, but ... less? That’s the new party line? 

”Yea we cheat too, but worse, and without any of the results the other teams get!”

idk if that’s really the explanation you guys wanna go with.

buckeyejonross

November 7th, 2019 at 4:55 PM ^

Again, for all the stuff you guys kill OSU for in the "cheating" department, part of that document dump from the Zach Smith fiasco were Urban Meyer text messages literally saying to back off an unnamed recruit because he wanted money. Unless you think Meyer knew his messages were gonna get preserved and FOIA'd and he was playing the long game, I don't think that text thread revealed what everyone here would have wanted it to reveal. On the other hand, Michigan football was directly linked via sworn testimony to "cheating" during the NCAA hoops trials from the Spring. Imagine the field day you guys would have had if that testimony implicated OSU instead of Michigan. Alas, that whole thing just got brushed under the rug here.

Or just ask Ace. That guy obviously is in the know when it comes to Michigan sports, and he not so indirectly says on Twitter that Rashan Gary was paid to go to Michigan. Or he just turned down $300k from Clemson to play for free at Michigan. Very noble. It is what it is. Welcome to the party. 

xtramelanin

November 7th, 2019 at 5:25 PM ^

no jon, you read too much into that comment.  when i was there (yes, i'm old) we were clean, very clean.  from what i am aware of now there is absolutely no institutional garbage like you all have had for decades - see t. pryor, your last 2 dismissed coaches (even USC won't hire that cheater, urban), maurice clarett, kardale 'we didn't come here to play skool' jones, tattoo-gate, current QB j. fields has not been in a classroom, etc.  

what i was getting at is that i'm not naive enough to think that no michigan booster, ever, has given a $100 handshake to some kid.  that's not institutional and it is trivial compared to the institutional corruption of your school, the SEC, and some others P5 conf/schools.  

you are far too smart to set up silly straw men.  your school is very good at football, but not so good about truthfulness, integrity, and other characteristics that are keenly important to most michigan supporters. its nice to have you here, but don't troll.  

buckeyejonross

November 7th, 2019 at 5:50 PM ^

Let's pick this apart:

Michigan recruited Terrelle Pryor just as hard as Ohio State did. Doesn't Cardale Jones go against your point, seeing as how his infamous tweet was literally him bitching about OSU making him go to class? If he didn't have to go to class, he never tweets what he did. And also, he grew up and graduated. If OSU had no integrity, why did they fire Tressel? Or do they have integrity because they fired him? You can't have it both ways. Urban wasn't fired, he retired. Or, conversely, OSU secretly fired him because they have integrity and didn't want him in charge anymore. Again, you gotta pock a side there. Your Justin Fields comment is laughable. He takes online classes. They count as real classes and everything. Lots of students take them. Even students at Michigan! They are good for athletes because they allow the athlete to take the class without being physically in the classroom during a rigid time-frame. Maybe you're aware, but athletes have busy schedules!

Feel free to cite some sources here, otherwise, you're just saying stuff because it fits the make believe that you choose to believe. You are far too smart to have your head this deep in the sand, and to be this naive about major college football in 2019.

xtramelanin

November 8th, 2019 at 10:11 AM ^

jon, i don't know if its the internet or you are being obtuse, but you didn't answer the call of the post.  its not that we didn't recruit pryor, its what pryor (and many others) did in the corrupt tressel regime during his time in ohio.   

ohio stood next to tressel for all they were worth, wasn't it gene smith who hoped tressel wouldn't fire him?   but ohio then had to fire tressel when, IIRC, a certain email came out from a FOIA request that exposed the lie(s).  and the NCAA show-caused tressel - an objective, non-maize-and-blue source.

meyer is a very good coach, but he's a lying snake.  he was terminated in slow motion for lying on video.  the 4 month delay is a 'saving face' move on both sides (meyer and the admin) but recognize meyer for who he is - a lying snake.  objective source:  USC's president won't hire him because of that and they are arm wrestling now to get him hired there.  remember urban, too sick to coach at florida, too sick to coach at ohio?  you aren't stupid, you are smart but also wear some very thick scarlet glasses.  dirty program, but a very good coach.  

today it comes out another of your players got caught.  i could go on and on, but at some point  with so many data points you have to face reality - since tressel started you guys have sold your souls to the devil to win.  it worked.  congrats.  maybe day will run a cleaner ship.  FWIW, i think he was a good hire and certainly he's having a fine year so far. 

Lakeyale13

November 8th, 2019 at 12:30 PM ^

Jon Ross...I agree with almost every point you have made except regarding Tressel and Urban.  OSU knew (timelines can be debated) the issues with Tressel and Urban.  THE ONLY REASON they fired both of them, was when the public outcry became too much.  The institution didn't altruistically do the right thing with letting go of either of those coaches. 

eth2

November 7th, 2019 at 1:26 PM ^

As John Wooden said, "Winning breeds winning" and those top programs have created a culture where winning is expected. Program under Harbaugh has made strides since RR and Hoke, but we are not there yet.

Note Wooden was also a notoriously dirty recruiter, so that, too.

Red is Blue

November 7th, 2019 at 1:36 PM ^

I think the focus that the playoffs, conference championship games and TV has brought to the elite teams has probably intensified "winning breeds winning" in recent years.  Recruits envision themselves performing under the brightest lights, and the brightest lights tend to shine on fewer teams than it used to.  

Want to see yourself making a great catch in a huge playoff game, the best bet is go to Alabama, Clemson or Oklahoma. 

cbutter

November 7th, 2019 at 1:32 PM ^

Some teams capitalized as the game became more national and with the rise of the CFP. It almost reset the blue blood conversation IMO. Since college football became national, a few teams rose to the top and unfortunately, Michigan was not one of them. 

UMxWolverines

November 7th, 2019 at 1:34 PM ^

Superior coaches. Tressel and Urban are some of the best ever to do it. To think we didn't have comparable players to OSU even though they beat us every year is foolish. 

Same with Oklahoma. And don't blame "bagmen" when we've had higher ranked classes than both Clemson and OU since Harbaugh has been here. 

It's Nick Saban, what more needs to be said? The guy does anything to win and has assembled a dynasty that will probably never be matched. 

Clemson and Dabo finally hit their stride when he hired Chad Morris and Brent Venebales and had Deshaun Watson was QB. Morris and Venebales are some of the best coordinators in the game. 

I'm not sure how great of a coach Orgeron is but he was smart enough to realize he had to revamp his offense with Joe Brady and Steve Esminger. 

GRWolverine1223

November 7th, 2019 at 1:36 PM ^

Recruiting!

Go through the 247 Team composite every year and you will see Alabama, Ohio State, Georgia, Clemson, consistently in the top 5 in team roster talent.. The disparity between 1-5 and 5-10 in talent is very large.

For example in the 2019 composite: #1 Alabama currently has 11 five stars, 58 four stars, and only 13 three stars... Whereas #11 ranked Michigan's roster currently has: 4 five stars, 36 four stars, and 38 three stars! 

Counting only 4/5 star players, Michigan has a 42% team deficiency in top talent when compared to Alabama's 4/5 stars. This is enormous gap. Further, I believe this gap gets compounded in practice because Michigan's 4/5 star players are practicing against Michigan's 3 stars, whereas Alabama's top talent is practicing against other top talent. Alabama's iron sharpens iron better..

https://247sports.com/Season/2019-Football/CollegeTeamTalentComposite/

 

BlueHills

November 7th, 2019 at 1:37 PM ^

I’d say it’s an interesting combination of things:

Ohio is a high school football powerhouse state. Lots of good high school programs, lots of players. They grow up OSU fans. 

Players have dreams, and one dream is to win championships and play in the NFL. Teams that win championships regularly attract more players at all levels, and the players get more national exposure. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Thus they build a very high caliber pipeline. Alabama and Clemson are close to the Florida pipeline, and of course, under the table gifts don’t hurt them.

The playoff system tends to build into a few schools having a pipeline that’s constantly at a very high player level. I freaking hate the playoff system, and think it’s ruined a lot of what was great about college football, but that’s just me and I realize most folks don’t agree with my hot take on it.

High profile teams have money, money buys good coaching. And coaches like Ryan Day are walking into programs that already have top players. He’d have to be a pretty poor coach to not succeed there, at least for a while.

Lots of schools have lower academic standards than a school like Michigan. There are players Michigan simply can’t take for academic reasons.

 

M-B Devil Dog

November 7th, 2019 at 4:44 PM ^

but I don't buy that. If you look at all the top athletes in the sport whether at Alabama, osu, Clemson, LSU, et al. we offered those kids as well.  We say we hold them to a higher academic standard but we let anyone in to play that passes the clearinghouse. Where we "hold them higher" is while they are here in their pursuit of a degree. How does that matter in recruiting? If a player clears the clearinghouse and can come here but after serious evaluation we think man he will struggle here then we don't offer, that is our academic difference.  I mean hell Rashan Gary made a 9 on the Wunderlic test so we can't claim some form of intellectual superiority when we have guys that are juuuuust skirting through. 

If Tua wanted to come here we would have taken him, if Jerry Jeudy wanted to come here we would have taken him, if Chase Young wanted to come here we would have taken him, the list will go on. 

butuka21

November 7th, 2019 at 1:38 PM ^

The answer is easy.  They have better players and have consistently recruited at a high level for a sustained period of time.  All of those programs that you mention have also had superior Quarterbacks then Michigan has had.  Its simple better qb, better athletes, better players=Winning more.

cbrad

November 7th, 2019 at 2:26 PM ^

UM top 10 classes are often based on quantity. See the 3*  outnumber the 4* in the chart above. UM recruiting is somewhat inconsistent and rankings do not consider the relative lack of talent on O.

Remember the last skill position O player to go 1st round was Braylon 15 years ago! Need to do much better job evaluating QB and RB. Johnathon Taylor was committed to Rutger before Wiscy snatched him.

 

theolddude

November 7th, 2019 at 1:49 PM ^

High level High school players want to play in the league. They also want to play for teams that can win the National title. These programs have been the best at doing both. They also do the best at maximizing recruiting ,with great recruiting directors, and an aggressive smart staff . I disagree that only these 3 can do it. I won't list them but I would say about 10 others have a shot .

gustave ferbert

November 7th, 2019 at 1:55 PM ^

It's more than just bagmen.  I agree with the poster the Ole Miss program would be competitive as well.  I think there is an institutional element to the cheating.  I think the entire state is behind O$U's program.  Witness:  The Powell Police Department altering arrest records to prevent them from being part of FOIA. Or the one player who punched a woman at a night club with no disciplinary action by the police.  Ohio State football is a billion dollar franchise.  The protection of that program is paramount.  Another lesser example is the Michigan State Athletic dept's influence over Ingham County Police and Prosecutor's to bury all those incidents of rape. 

We don't know the Alabama influence because the power is so vast.  The entire institutional structure is in on it because it's in their interest to do so.  

It's a combination of money and power. These kids can have any of the money they want, and they can get away with pretty much anything and they're protected.