Hokepoints: What's a 5-Star Running Back? Comment Count

Seth

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Green / Grady / Woodson

Like many of my generation, I had a little thing when Ace finally posted the long-awaited Hello: Derrick Green post. Like he was all…

justwill

And the board was all…

justcuz

And even Magnus was all…

justdad

And I was all…well, nothing that would make for an interesting gif. You kids won't remember this but we've had a five-star tailback commit before. And we got really excited. Like We Beat the Russians to the Moon, except fast-excited. And that was right before a Des-pose'd NCAA 2006 arrived with a new mode where you create a freshman and run him to a Heisman. We were all Grady.

But we were all of us deceived.

The high schooler who plowed through the state turned out to be Thomas Rawls except not fast. Grady was given a lot of chances, especially early, but peaked as a fumble-prone, #2 guy to Hart. The meat of his career was spent nursing an ACL tear that won him his medical redshirt, and flirting with the edge of the Darryl Stonum outer boundary of tolerable off-the-field stuff. He finished his eligibility as a fullback in the 2009 outfit with 783 yards, a 3.9 YPC and 10 TDs.

That's a respectable enough career for a blue collar fullback, but not a blue chip. It's also way too small a sample size to justify acting like a wet blanket over Michigan's first five-star RB since the first Grady.

It is well to remember that we had a lot of highly rated backs before stars became a thing, for example Charles Woodson was one according to a Lloyd interview on one of the videotapes I bought when the video store in the Union closed. A-Train was Prep Football Report's #2 back in the nation. Wheatley in high school was the best all-around athlete the state of Michigan had seen since Harmon. Tom Harmon…well this is why we keep things to recent memory. What we need is more samples. To the rest of the NCAA!

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(…where gordie bell just traveled, kinda. His stuff is just off Rivals, and includes four-stars, and is mostly a bunch of lists. Aw heck just read both. And JUMP)

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What We're Talking About

To the people who decide such things, Derrick Green is an elite running back. He's a five-star, the #1 overall running back and a top 10 overall player to both Rivals and Scout. ESPN marioglowstarhas him a 4-star with an 87 rating, the 5th RB and 38th overall prospect. 247 Sports has him a 4-star, the eighth RB, and 84th player overall. Ignoring 247 since their first class with rankings is 2010, Green is one of just 50 players since 2002 to get five-star billing on at least two of Rivals/Scout/ESPN (the latter's been in it since 2006).

Specifically he's the "running" kind of five-star running back, by which I mean some of the services like to break tailbacks into "all-purpose" and "running" backs. It gets confusing when you see some of the previous listings (e.g. Hart is all-purpose), but in general an APB is a spread- or scat-back, while the larger category is for NFL-style thunder walkers. Green, no doubt you've heard, is thunder.

Removing the lighting-style guys like C.J. Spiller and Noel Devine, we are left with the following Green comparables:

Rivals Name School Year R S E Yds Yds Pace YPA TDs Pace NFL Pick
T.J. Yeldon Bama 2012 5 4 4 1,239 4,956 6.7 52 in college
Marcus Lattimore S Carolina 2010 5 4 4 3,444 4,592 5.5 55 in college
Reggie Bush USC 2003 5 4 - 4,470 4,470 8.5 38 2
Adrian Peterson Oklahoma 2004 5 5 - 4,243 4,243 5.5 42 7
Trent Richardson Bama 2009 5 5 5 3,860 3,860 6.3 42 3
Marlon Lucky Nebraska 2005 5 5 - 3,772 3,772 5.8 26 undrafted
Beanie Wells Ohio State 2006 5 5 5 3,466 3,466 5.8 30 31
Johnathan Gray Texas 2012 5 5 5 852 3,408 5.3 16 in college
Jerious Norwood Miss St 2002 5 4 - 3,398 3,398 5.5 17 79
Jonathan Stewart Oregon 2005 5 5 - 3,225 3,225 5.7 31 13
Michael Dyer Auburn 2010 5 5 5 2,351 3,135 5.5 20 in college
Christine Michael TexasA&M 2009 5 4 4 3,114 3,114 5.4 35 likely
Joe McKnight USC 2007 5 5 5 2,755 2,755 6.7 15 112
Malcolm Brown Texas 2011 5 5 5 1,195 2,390 4.8 20 in college
Ciatrick Fason Florida 2002 5 5 - 2,285 2,285 6.3 19 112
Lache Seastrunk Baylor 2010 5 4 4 1,119 2,238 8.0 16 in college
Gerald Riggs Jr. Tenn 2002 5 5 - 2,016 2,016 5.0 10 undrafted
Marc Tyler USC 2007 5 5 5 1,996 1,996 5.5 17 undrafted
Kregg Lumpkin Georgia 2003 5 5 - 1,934 1,934 5.1 17 undrafted
James Wilder Jr. Florida St 2011 5 4 4 955 1,910 5.8 28 in college
Jamie Harper Clemson 2008 4 5 5 1,709 1,709 4.7 15 130
Stafon Johnson USC 2006 5 5 5 1,617 1,617 5.7 19 undrafted
Darrell Scott Colorado 2008 5 5 5 1,561 1,561 5.4 7 undrafted
Maurice Clarett Ohio State 2002 5 5 - 1,341 1,341 5.7 18 101
Demetris Summers S Carolina 2003 5 5 - 1,336 1,336 5.7 6 undrafted
James Aldridge ND 2006 5 4 4 1,010 1,010 3.8 3 undrafted
Kevin Grady Michigan 2005 5 5 - 933 933 4.2 10 undrafted
Isaiah Crowell Georgia 2011 5 5 5 909 909 4.7 6 in J.C.
Brandon Williams Oklahoma 2011 5 4 4 219 876 4.8 0 in college
Bryce Brown Tennessee 2009 5 5 5 616 616 5.4 4 229
Aaron Green Nebraska 2011 4 5 5 130 520 5.2 12 in college
Mike Bellamy Clemson 2011 5 4 4 347 347 5.9 3 in J.C.
Jermie Calhoun Oklahoma 2008 5 5 5 278 278 4.6 1 in J.C.
Jason Gwaltney W Virginia 2005 5 5 - 201 201 4.1 3 undrafted

That is 34 nodes, over half of whom were drafted or are on track to be, and most of those who went undrafted ended up on NFL teams. You'd expect a five-star to be more than an undrafted free agent; a lot of those guys became so because of something other than talent.

A quick review of the undrafted, the unwanted, and the other guys on this list who didn't Meet Expectations:

  • Marlon Lucky had a solid career that peaked junior year. A senior year injury dropped him out of the draft. He's now in the top indoor league.
  • Gerald Riggs was half of Tennessee's 1-2 punch with Cedric Houston. Riggs got injured as a senior and that put him out of draft range. He's now with the Toronto Argonauts.
  • Marc Tyler, Jimmy Clausen the RB version, scraped out a 1,000 yard season between more remarkable USC tailbacks, had a bunch of off-field issues through senior year that kept him from ever being more than Guy #2 in a crowded backfield. Undrafted, he will probably pop up on somebody's practice squad next year.
  • Kregg Lumpkin was the uninspiring back who finally got Knowshon'd out of carries at Georgia. He's now finding work as an NFL journeyman for teams who use up their running backs.
  • Stafon Johnson, you've probably heard of. He had a horrific neck injury that inspired USC's "STA FIGHT ON" stickers, until Sta forwent a medical redshirt senior year and sued SC for negligence. Sta Fight On!
  • Darrell Scott had the quite silly idea to attend Colorado out of high school. He was a bit of a bust, complaining he wasn't getting carries when a 2-star competed them away from him. Scott put up a decent (814 yards, 5.3 YPC, 5 TDs) season at South Florida then split for the NFL.
  • Demetris Summers, that dude from Alberta who somehow ended up playing for Spurrier, got lots of touches as a freshman but got kicked off the team for poking the smot.
  • James Aldridge was recruited by Charlie Weis for the Return to Glory™, spending most of his career choosing between unblocked defenders who persistently broke through Weis-era offensive lines, and collecting ensuing Clausen fumbles, all fantastic preparation for a career in rugby.
  • Jermie Calhoun didn't become the next Adrian Peterson. After two years of not being able to crack the depth chart he transferred.
  • Isaiah Crowell rushed for over 900 yards as a freshman, but was behind the Dogs' dynamic freshmen, and anyway he was kicked off the team for a weapons charge. He was at Alabama State last year.
  • Jason Gwaltney is a name once brought up by Rich Rod detractors as an example of kids he took a chance on at West Virginia that wouldn't fly at Michigan, and RR defenders as a guy Rod reeled in over offers from OSU and USC. An injury ended his freshman year when he was losing the competition with fellow freshman Steve Slaton, then he slacked on the rehab, tried to go play for USC, and ended up non-schollied at a Division III school.
  • Mike Bellamy was dismissed from Clemson for skipping too many classes.

To this you're welcome to add a Bryce Brown or whatnot from guys who seem to be en route to mediocre backs. But notice anything missing? Very few of these guys were busts, and if they were, it seemed to come from a lack of effort, not talent. I don't want to glory in these failures, just point out that talent evaluation at this position seems to be remarkably accurate.

Realm of the young

Running back is still the first position you think of when you figure a freshman has a chance of making a major impact on the depth chart, and that plays out when you see how many of the five-stars managed to churn out 700+ yard seasons in their first go-rounds:

Rivals Name School Year R S E Fr Yds Fr YPC
Adrian Peterson Oklahoma 2004 5 5 - 1,937 5.6
Marcus Lattimore S Carolina 2010 5 4 4 1,609 5.8
Maurice Clarett Ohio State 2002 5 5 - 1,341 5.7
TJ Yeldon Alabama 2012 5 4 4 1,239 6.7
Michael Dyer Auburn 2010 5 5 5 1,102 6.0
Christine Michael Texas A&M 2009 5 4 4 910 5.0
Isaiah Crowell Georgia 2011 5 5 5 909 4.7
Trent Richardson Alabama 2009 5 5 5 877 5.4
Johnathan Gray Texas 2012 5 5 5 852 5.3
Reggie Bush USC 2003 5 4 - 835 8.0
Demetris Summers S Carolina 2003 5 5 - 784 5.8
Malcolm Brown Texas 2011 5 5 5 759 4.3
Joe McKnight USC 2007 5 5 5 743 6.4
Kregg Lumpkin Georgia 2003 5 5 - 616 4.9
Bryce Brown Tennessee 2009 5 5 5 597 5.4
Kevin Grady Michigan 2005 5 5 - 596 4.4
Beanie Wells Ohio State 2006 5 5   592 5.6
Darrell Scott Colorado 2008 5 5   448 4.7

After this group you start getting into not a lot of carries that were mostly in garbage time. Again the baseline here seems to be Beanie Wells, whom you can tell from Grady by the YPC.Hart - NW1

If you were worried about Grady being some kind of median for what you can expect from a Green, this is encouraging. A good third of this list contributed 3,000+ yards to their teams (or are on pace to). Half are NFL draftees. Many of the guys who didn't make it were because of discipline issues, not misjudged talent. When compared to the offensive linemen, this is a position with a very high predictive success rate.

I like this finding, since it fits with personal observations that running backs, if they mature with age, don't develop nearly as much as the other positions. Mike Hart got better at leadership and maybe could diagnose a lane a little better, but he arrived a 185-pound, 200 yards per game, fumbless dude who can shimmy-cut past a guy; minus a pair of functional ankles he more or less graduated a 200-lb version of the same dude. They might learn blocking as they age but it's probably more common to see a freshman with 300 touches than a heretofore unknown redshirt junior leap out of a depth chart if he wasn't injured, transferring, or stuck behind another major guy. They still have their best seasons as upperclassmen, but a great 23-year-old seems to be pretty close to great at 19.

So Green = Awesome is Go, right?

Let's not say that; let's say it negates the old "early growth spurt means he's already too near his ceiling" fear. What the services seem to mean by a 5-star running back is a ready-made more-than-just-a guy who can plug into an offense with minimal rewriting. Heismans and 1,500 yard rushers are notoriously difficult to come by, even if you're manufacturing 350-lb. offensive linemen from cheese and Ted Nugent albums. But if you're going to have the best overall player from any one position, this spot seems to give you the greatest chance of actually coming away with the best overall player from that position.

Speaking of the Nation's Top…

The ESPN and 247 rankings shouldn't be discarded, however they don't change the fact that Green is also just the sixth guy since '02 to be the No. 1 running back to both Rivals and Scout. His company:

Rivals Name Year Ht Wt 40yd Yards YPA TD 1K+ YDs Drafted (Rnd)
Adrian Peterson 2004 6'2" 210 4.4 4243 5.5 42 3x 7th (1st)
Joe McKnight 2007 6'1" 193 4.4 2755 6.7 15 1x 112th (4th)
Bryce Brown 2009 6'0" 215 4.4 616 5.4 4 never 229th (7th)
Marcus Lattimore 2010 6'0" 210 4.5 3444 5.5 41 x in college
Derrick Green 2013 6'0" 220 4.4 ? ? ? ? ?

Green's 40-time has to be more FAKE than Peterson's. Still, when I posted that I got a little shiver. ESPN was maybe rougher on Lattimore (84 rating, 4 stars, #2 RB) than Green, though 247 (98 rating, 5 stars, #2 APB and #16 overall) just ended that comparison like a Vincent Smith ISO. If the naysayers are correct, they're still talking about a ready-made, better-than-okay player for 2013, with an upside peaking into the Heismanosphere.

Okay I'm ready to dance now.

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Comments

borninAnnArbor

January 29th, 2013 at 11:59 AM ^

If I were good enough I would have played at Michigan even if they ran the hampster dance offense. I can't help but think that if Grady played in a more MANBALL offense, he would have worked out his fumble issues, attitude, and dobe much better the more he touched the ball. But then richrod happened. Still Grady is responsible for himself but he could have been better. Green comes in at an optimal time and is a great fit. I think will do well

big10football

January 29th, 2013 at 10:17 AM ^

I have a question about the rankings of these for-profit sites. 

Fans of small schools make a forceful argument that the recruiting sites, Rivals in particular, gives higher rankings to schools with greater membership to their site, becuase they want to generate more interest from those fan bases and in turn attract greater membership. The inverse of this is that players that commit to schools with very low membership to the sites are given lower ratings.

One recent example that I saw of this is a USF commit Deadrin Senat.  He was a 4-star recruit on Rivals yesterday.  He has offers from schools like Auburn, Georgia, LSU, USC (both), Miami (YTM), Notre Dame, Tennesee, Oklahoma, and others.  He committed to USF yesterday and literally within minutes he dropped to a 3-star. 

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/player-Deadrin-Senat-129381

 

What makes it particularly odd is that Deadrin is ranked 46 in the State of Florida.  The players ranked, 47, 48, 49, 50, and 51 are all still 4-stars. 

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/rankings/rank-3157

How much do people think that the player rankings on some of these pay sites are affected by the potential to attract members to these sites and increase revenue? 

Magnus

January 29th, 2013 at 10:37 AM ^

I question whether that's actually true (that he dropped within minutes).  First of all, rankings were already finalized last week.  Secondly, there wouldn't be any point in dropping a 4-star guy to a 3-star.  If they truly improved the rankings of players committed to big colleges for the sole reason of readership, then what would it hurt to have a guy committed to USF who's a 4-star?  It's not like that hurts any of the other schools.

Magnus

January 29th, 2013 at 10:56 AM ^

All I'm saying is that you might be mis-remembering, or it might have been a glitch, or you might have been looking at the "User Rating" rather than Rivals' rating, or something.  Or perhaps it actually happened.  But ratings were supposed to be finalized last week, so any changes after that should not have happened.  I wouldn't really take that one case as being indicative of a giant conspiracy.

big10football

January 29th, 2013 at 11:09 AM ^

Well here's a tweet from a USF beat writer if it helps.  he wrote an article about the commitment when it happened, then had to go back and change it to reflect that Senat was suddenly a 3-star. Maybe a glitch, but pretty strange. 

Greg Auman@gregauman

It's a curious change. Senat was listed as 4-star when I posted story last night. Where someone signs shouldn't change evaluation.

His write-up:

http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/bulls/content/immokalee-dt-senat-latest-commit-bulls

Doesn't it seem strange that several players ranked lower in the in-state rankings, one of which plays the same position as Senat, are 4-star players, whereas Senat is suddenly 3?  It does to me.

I also wasn't implying a "giant conspiracy".  Everyone knows that pay sites write provocative headlines to attract viewership.  This theory doesn't seem like much of a stretch in my opinion. 

imafreak1

January 29th, 2013 at 10:28 AM ^

Have we really reached a point where a significant portion of the fanbase is not aware of Kevin Grady? Please tell me this has not happened.

Michigans last two 5 star RBs have been busts. Kelly Baraka was even more of a bust than Grady. But if the only Grady you know is Kelvin then you probably don't know Baraka either.

What this means is either Michigan is cursed or due for a 5 star RB to hit big--depending on your perspective.

BiSB

January 29th, 2013 at 11:29 AM ^

Technically he made it onto campus. I know this because I saw him smoking... cigarettes. Yes, that's it. cigarettes... at a party near campus in '01. I think he got booted in '02, and never saw the field.

Thing is, Baraka wasn't an on-field bust. If his head had worked properly, he very likely would have been the Destroyer of Worlds he was expected to be.

gwkrlghl

January 29th, 2013 at 12:01 PM ^

I found this interesting write up on him. Seems like he totally dropped out of football for a while there, not sure what he's doing now since it's 2013 now and not 2008

http://aceofsports.blogspot.com/2008/07/where-you-at-kelly-baraka-editi…

EDIT: Oh apparently Brian found him doing MMA in 2010

http://mgoblog.com/content/unverified-voracity-catches-kelly-baraka-yes…

thevictors51

January 29th, 2013 at 10:33 AM ^

I grew up in Grand Rapids while Kevin Grady was at East Grand Rapids and even though he was good, EGR was a division 2 school. In division 2 football in Michigan there are not very many good teams which is why Grady had really good numbers. Now if EGR was in division 1 I think his numbers would have been smaller and his recruiting rating wouldnt' have been so high. So for him being a bust, it doesn't suprise me at all.

 

Tauro

January 29th, 2013 at 10:57 AM ^

This I recall being discussed when he first committed.  Folks here were unsure what to really make of him due to playing against lesser competition than others.  Certainly not as excited as with Green and Smith this year.

DK81

January 29th, 2013 at 1:10 PM ^

IIRC and I should because I played at Northview. EGR at the time was in the OK White Conference which was the toughest conference in the state of Michigan and pretty much every other team in the conference was division 1 besides EGR. So its true that during the playoffs they played all division two teams, Grady and company still had to face division 1 teams during the regular season with the likes of Lowell (Who won many division 1 state championships recently) and Greenville etc.

Blue boy johnson

January 29th, 2013 at 11:39 AM ^

Good stuff. After reading this, I think Green has a realistic chance to get significant carries in his freshman season. To use a basketball saying; Green should get starter minutes as a freshman.

I expect 3 to 4 threads a day updating or looking for updates on Green's practice development. Things such as; "anybody heard how Green's doing in practice"?

New Kid On The Blog

January 29th, 2013 at 12:14 PM ^

"even if you're manufacturing 350-lb. offensive linemen from cheese and Ted Nugent albums" 

My co-workers are wondering what I'm laughing about at my desk. I love breaking up my day with a few minutes on Mgoblog reading about my favoirte team. Perhaps Green and Smith can be a two-headed monster for UM for the next several seasons. Go Blue!

UMichFanInOhio

January 29th, 2013 at 2:41 PM ^

I'm definitely excited about the recent verbal commit of Derrick Green. Both Green and Deveon Smith will be a great running back tandom for years to come. It will be nice to go back to the smash mouth brand of football that Michigan is known for while having a QB who can accurately get the ball to his receivers. Not that I won't miss Denard's exciting playmaking ability. Before proclaiming Green to be the next best thing I definitely want to see results out on the field first. He will definitely have a lot of help in front of him with the offensive line classes that Hoke has been bringing in. From the video interviews I've seen from Green, I'm impressed by how humble/well spoken he is while at the same time willing to do anything to achieve his goals. I'm looking forward to the next 3, hopefully 4 years of him in the Maize and Blue.

This list of busts in college football has brought back bad memories of players that my Bungles, err Bengals have taken chances on. Mike Brown never ceases to amaze me with the players he drafts. Maybe someday hell will freeze over and he'll hire a GM. Worst Owner Ever! I really wish that Chris Perry would've worked out but he was never utilized to his strenghs. Crazy to think that the Bengals coudl've drafted Steven Jackson instead but who would've guess he would've had the career he has so far? Not me.

denards40time

January 29th, 2013 at 2:45 PM ^

While I'm very excited about the committment, I'm more excited because of the fact that he's a 5 star and the top running back in his class and what that may mean for future Michigan classes, rather than Green himself. He looks pretty good but on tape he doesn't appear to be the same caliber of the other running backs rated at the top of their class. Obviously I hope he proves me incredibly wrong and then comes to my house and punches me in the face, but I'm not sure he'll live up to the hype. 

DelhiGoBlue

January 29th, 2013 at 6:28 PM ^

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but Woodson agreed to come to Michigan because he was promised he would be slotted as a D back.  I seem to recall him saying something along the lines that he would have a longer FB career if he stopped getting hit and started doing the hitting.

Seth

February 6th, 2013 at 12:30 PM ^

That's correct. If I remember correctly I think Carr talked about Woodson's recruitment in the 2006 Michigan-Ohio State rivalry video.

I heard a bit more of the story when I met the Gants. Mo went down there first and told Woodson he was going to win a Heisman at Michigan (presumably at rb or wr because defensive players don't win Heismans...or didn't yet). Anyway Mo introduced him to Carr, and they hit it off perfectly. And then Carr became head coach. They made it sound like if Lloyd Carr was coaching tight ends at Kent State then Woodson would have been a tight end at Kent State.

I believe Woodson wanted to be a defensive back because that's where he could have the most impact, which was true and obvious but you almost never expect a highly rated high school kid to want a position that appears less glamorous. I think Carr was better than most coaches about not shoehorning kids into stereotyes, and Woodson was a brilliant athlete who was also a heavyweight mind, even as an 18-year-old. It makes sense that he'd take to Carr.