Gary v. Bosa
OSU fan here. Given that it is slow, I thought that I would tip you off that OSU fans expect there to be a lot of arguments the next two years regarding whether Rashan Gary or Nick Bosa is the better player.
Arguments for Gary: you already know them. I do not dispute any of them, and expect him to be elite.
Arguments for Bosa: OSU press has reported that OSU coaches think that (1) Nick has been better than his brother Joey at the same age (in HS and as college freshman). I think each team would be thrilled if either player has the career that Joey did (http://www.ohiostatebuckeyes.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/joey_bosa_854118.html) (2) Nick was the best player on the team last year (Nick played limited snaps, particularly early, since he was recovering from injury).
Freshman stats: I think they are meaningless, since both players were behind excellent upper classman. If you are neverthelss curious, Nick's were a little better -- 5 sacks/7 TFL for Nick v. 1/5 for Gary.
Obviously, too early to call, and each team likes there guy.
Thus far I'll take Ed Oliver for $500 Alex. Check back in 2 years though.
Ed Oliver is a DT making this a non-sequitur. He didn't ask who the best player will be period or the best d-lineman.
Personally I think Nick Bosa could be easier to root for than his brother but I really, really hope he's not as good (or even close) until he gets to the NFL. Also the "easier to root for" part could change as he reaches upperclassmanship and comes into his own.
All that said, Gary > Bosa
Welcome to our board!
With that said, go to hell... :-D
Thanks for the welcome. Pains me to admit it, but this board is way better than any OSU board.
Well, flattery will get you EVERYWHERE! Do these pants make me look fat???
Tommy: "Does this jacket make me look fat?"
Richard: "No, your face does."
"Way better" = something along the lines of, "the OSU board is completely myopic, but this board is only mostly myopic"
Plenty of balanced people here, but then others will say things like there is "no argument in my mind" about which player will be better in two years based on speculative high school rankings and sparse data from first seasons.
I suppose it's true that there is "no argument in [his/her] mind," but that's a quintuissential example of pure myopia,
And then people like me get "negged" for calling a spade a spade, as if people like me give a flying F and derive self-worth from being "negged" (or getting positives) on a college sports forum.
Beat it - this is the No Buckeye Club. Can't even have one.
I actually rooted for Ohio State in the NCAA lacrosse tourney the other day, may actually do so again this weekend (mildly) because it could be good for the conference. But other than that Ohio State = root of all evil.
I root for OSU to win every game except our so that it hurts more when we beat them. That said, I am always happy when they lose.
dafuq?? No, ohio should lose every game ever in every sport and competition. end of story.
If Bosa was better why wasn't he the unanimous #1 recruit in the country a year ago?
Gary played behind a 1st round draft pick last year so throw the stats out the window. He is bigger stronger faster and just a better player. Not really a debate in my mind.
Where they rate as recruits is a pretty worthless data point when debating who is better. No different than saying Montana is better than Brady because he was a higher draft pick.
You're correct, their recruiting profile has nothing to do with their current performance and needn't be evaluated.
But then, neither do their freshman season performances where their roles were different and involved vastly different personnel situations.
This smells like a couple of OSU fans angling for an "us too!" debate in one area where Michigan has a likely advantage, perhaps similar to how they were sore over the attention Jabrill Peppers was appropriately getting. They've gotten spoiled with their recent run of success, I guess.
Yeah, I'm firmly in the camp that thinks this debate is pointless at the moment. There's so little actual on field accomplishments for either player that trying to suss out who is better is fairly pointless. Its a convo for next offseason.
Not worthless at all. Are you going to sit here and argue Najee Harris and Kurt Taylor are equal talents? Didn't think so.
The rankings give you a good idea of what to expect from a player, which makes projecting a bit easier. The ratings in this case suggest that Gary is going to be a monster. So we have reason to expect that any statistical inequities in the freshman season will even out.
But they don't make someone a better player. The recruiting rankings didn't think much of Mike Hart, for example, but his performance on the field exceeded that of every 4 and 5-star RB in his class except #1 overall recruit Adrian Peterson.
And this "debate," minimal as it is at this point, will be settled by what the guys actually do on the field.
Gary's ranking simply gives us an idea of what type of performance that will be.
Holy apples and oranges argument, Batman. You're comparing a composite Top-10 national player to a generic 3-star running back recruit, neither of whom have played a single snap of football at the college level. The question at hand refers to two 5-star recruits, both of whom have played meaningful (if limited) snaps as freshman and therefore we can have more informed opinions about their respective talent levels.
That comment came about because he said:
"Where they rate as recruits is a pretty worthless data point when debating who is better."
Has nothing to do with the 'question at hand." Ok.
Recruiting rankings tell you what some random scouts think the value of a random high school kid is GOING to be. We're looking for results on what they CURRENTLY are.
So yes, ratings that deal with a future projection of a player's potential college worth have little value when debating what the current actual college worth is. Its no more significant than using a two-day old weather forecast to figure out how nice of a day it is today. One forecast said it was going to be 75 and partly cloudy, the other said it was going to be 72 and mostly sunny. Guess what, none of that matters because its currently 80 and sunny as shit.
Also, looking at the 247 composite ratings for both guys, the two ratings we're talking about are a 1.000 for Gary and a .9965 for Bosa. Your super significant data point is a whopping .0035.
So to sum up, your recruiting rankings argument is worthless because its both statistically insignificant and because it has no bearing on the present.
#1 overall recruits don't bust, and Gary is the first UNANIMOUS #1 player across all 4 recruiting sites. So to sum up, no it's not worthless. And leave the weather out of this.
but with more upside..
"If Bosa was better why wasn't he the unanimous #1 recruit in the country a year ago? "
Ed Oliver absolutely was better than Gary... and he wasn't the the unanimous #1 recruit in the country a year ago.
"Gary was stuck behind a first round draft pick, Oliver was the best player in his conference the moment he signed his LOI."
Even on a per snap basis Gary was not close to Oliver.
They actually played a surprising similar number of snaps. Gary played one more game than Oliver.
Gary played ~300 snaps. Oliver played less than 400 snaps.
"Not that Oliver wasn't better as a freshman anyway, but you'd have to think Gary could have put up better numbers in a situation more similar to Oliver."
I think in a similar situation Gary would have put up better numbers, but still would have come nowhere near matching Oliver.
Olivers counting stats are insane.
His rate stats are insane.
His advanced stats are insane - PFF had the guy as the #1 rated run defender at DT in CFB. Not the #1 freshman, #1 overall... no freshman had ever been in the top 25 before.
Ed Oliver vs. Oklahoma and Louisville:
62 snaps
5 TFL
4 sacks
2 passes batted
1 Forced fumble
Rashan Gary entire season:
~300 snaps
5 TFL
1 sack
0 passes batted
0 Forced fumbles
...and Oliver plays NT, not DE - where it's much harder to rack up those stats.
To be fair, so was (and still is) Nick Bosa. Tyquan Lewis and Sam Hubbard are likely going first round too.
Gary may very well be better but Bosa finished as the #3 recruit despite losing a year to an acl injury. Gary is more versatitle but I bet Bosa gets more sacks and other counting stats so this debate won't go away.
Now that Gary will be playing starter's minutes, an argument won't be necessary after this season.
As DEs, I think it's too early to make a determination. They are both excellent. If Nick is like Joey, he will be a terror off the edge. To me, though, Gary wins because of his versatility. He had 30 pounds on Bosa going into college, which means that he can play DT and hold up against the run.
If Bosa is star pass rusher and Gary is a star both in the pass rush and run defense, then it seems to me like Gary is the better player overall.
Also, it looks like Gary has a better 40 time? Part of the reason he was consensus #1 was because of his ridiculous measurables.
yep its early and theyre young but i agree with much of this. bosa likely puts up better sack #s in college and prob gets drafted (very early) as pure DE. gary offers more versatility now (and likely as a pro) with his bigger frame - he will put up #s too and also dominate for stretches, but prob not post as many sacks. bosa is versatile too (he slid down and embarrassed plenty of interior OL in pass situations last year) but itll be more difficult to carry that to nfl at his projected size.
i think most agree bosa will be drafted as DE. who really knows with gary. he could remain at anchor until he leaves michigan and a team may pick him at DE. or a team could select him as 3-4 end or 3 tech (whether or not he sees many reps there at m). theyre both elite players, obviously. and itll be fun to watch them over next few years. bosa is a beast, like gary, and i wish he played for m (or at least didnt play against them).
side note - i think winovich may lead m in sacks with gary (and hurst) likely more dominant and requiring more game planning
There's no way Gary, billed one inch taller, is 30 pounds heavier than Bosa. I'm not even sure there's a way he's any pounds heavier.
Also, Joey was flat out dominant against the run, and shifted inside on 3rd down by his junior season. It's predictable Nick will get there. As a freshman, Nick only played on 3rd down, and rushed from the outside.
Gary recruiting profile on 247: 6'5" 293
Nick Bosa on 247: 6'4" 265.
Joey 6'6" 275 out of HS FWIW.
Using a recruiting service for height and weight caveats apply but it's documented. OSU's roster currently shows Bosa at 270.
I'm not disputing the numbers were listed as you presented them. But look at pics of Gary in high school and he obviously looks way smaller/skinnier than he does now. And he's currently billed 287, 17 pounds heavier than Bosa, and 6 pounds lighter than high school. So, idk. And again, look at those pics I posted, there's no way Gary's almost 20 pounds heavier than Bosa. I could see 10 pounds, because he's an inch taller, but c'mon, 20? That's a tough sell. I'd imagine they're probably the same weight.
I try to avoid the school's rosters as much as possible since they never seem to be truly accurate. Joey was 10 pounds lighter at the combine than he was on OSU's roster his final season. Based on where both guys came in and both having one year on a S&C program, I don't think it's unreasonable to think there is a 20ish pound difference. I also can't use two pictures of guys in full pads celebrating plays as a good estimate.
It is very difficult to compare the weights of football players in full pads, never mind from pictures, nevermind even further when they aren't in the same picture.
You're basically saying "Look, Bosa has more muscular arms, so Gary can't possibly weigh significantly more than Bosa." That logic is riddled with false assumptions.
If we were talking about bodybuilding, then Bosa absolutely gets the win. He is leaner, more muscular, and looks more jacked. He absolutely has a better aesthetic physique than Gary as is obvious by his muscular arms and Gary's average looking muscularity in his arms. That does not however mean he's bigger, stronger, more explosive, or a better player, but it does probably mean he looks better in a bathing suit :)
Sure. And I didn't say anything about Bosa being stronger, more explosive, or being better at football than Gary. But I did say there's no way on earth Gary is 20-30 pounds heavier than Bosa.
I did say there's no way on earth Gary is 20-30 pounds heavier than Bosa.
How can you make that assessment by looking at pictures of guys in different pictures? I can't even find a picture on the internet with them both in the same shot. I can however find pictures of Nick & Joey in the same picture and they look like carbon copies of each other except Joey is maybe an inch taller. Joey weighed 269 lbs at the Combine so you can trust that weight. It makes sense that Nick is under 270 lbs. So being about 20 lbs lighter than Rashan sounds about right if you want to speculate based on pictures, unless you think Rashan's listed weight is much heavier than his actual weight.