This will be the third time that MSU influences how a college game is played
I expect the reviews are going to be much more rigid and would expect that you are going to hear "the ruling on the field stands." more often than we used to.
2001 Clockgate brought in an official time keeper.
2015 - "roughing the snapper" was called with more frequency after they didn't call it on MSU.
2021 - there will be particular emphasis from this point on to not "re-officiate" the play.
Notice this trend when you watch games in the future to see if I am right.
That's all, neg me if you want. One last lament before I am forced to move on with my life and try to let go of the result this weekend.
November 2nd, 2021 at 10:53 AM ^
I guess "how a college game is officiated" would have been a more appropriate title. Sorry can't edit.
November 2nd, 2021 at 3:06 PM ^
Sorry to jump in so early. I believe that Dantonio and Narducci were also responsible for the handclapping penalty.
November 2nd, 2021 at 10:56 AM ^
I will not be surprised if that happens, especially if that play is talked about in more national media. I think a poster said in one of those threads about how there is no accountability for the replay booth. No explanation or nothing. If you are going to overturn show the audience what tipped your decision. Or at least give evidence to someone impartial so it can be improved. I am not smart enough to have an answer but that call was unacceptable. Time to move on. :)
November 2nd, 2021 at 11:14 AM ^
I'm willing to set aside the refshow rhetoric if they can produce whatever angle they apparently had on that fumble that led them to re-officiate the play. After all, if they had such conclusive evidence on the field, shouldn't be hard to show the public right? But until that point, it goes down in history as a massive error that unfortunately had an outsized effect on the game.
But until then, we're not moving on, in that Sparty will never get respekt for that farcial "win" and it's gonna bug them until the end of time. Seriously, RCMB is practically frothing at the mouth because us and everyone else are simply stating the truth, the better team lost on Saturday due to referee incompetence. The insecurity of that fanbase is staggering, rather than celebrating their hollow victory, they're combing the internet for disrespekt because they still don't feel validated.
*LOL the big brains at RCMB grabbed this post (and others because we live in their heads rent free) and tripped over themselves with posts like "my friend says we're respected!" and "NUH UH, this one post on r/cfb says we're cool!" or my favorite was literally guy saying "NO U" basically.
Imagine winning a big game versus your rival and STILL needing validation to confirm that you're not inferior. Methinks some people's parents didn't love them enough lmao
November 2nd, 2021 at 11:36 AM ^
I've said something similar before, but holy crap just think about it--all if this recent (albeit at times, shady) success against Michigan and they're still just little brother. Example #687,365 as to why MSU has rightfully earned the nickname.
What's funny is that only the MSU fanbase at large would think that the whole "little brother" thing has anything to do with football or sports in general. I mean yeah, Mike Hart officially said it back in 2007, but everyone else but them has known it to be true for many many decades and it goes so much deeper than sports. It's a culturally-ingrained inferiority-complex (little brother syndrome) that manifests as obnoxious, douche-baggy behavior like you mentioned--combing the internet for "disrespekt" because they still don't feel validated after a shallow win against Michigan.
November 2nd, 2021 at 1:12 PM ^
In fairness to Hart, he did say immediately after he called them that he said, "that's what they think, so yeah".
Little Brother is not about wins or losses. I wouldn't necessarily go as far as to say it's an ingrained inferiority complex but they benchmark their year on how they do against Michigan. (I realize that could be constituted as an inferiority complex so maybe I'm splitting hairs here).
I remember one year they even got on the back of some ring, the M game score when they won. At the end of the day, they benchmark themselves on how they do against us and we don't. End of story and thus, little brother.
November 2nd, 2021 at 2:16 PM ^
It's not complicated. The video from different cameras is time-synced. The replay officials find the best angle for determing when the fumble occured. Then they find the best angle to show when his shin was down. Then they check the times to see which one happened first. Done.
There doesn't need to be, and often won't be, a single camera angle that shows the best view of both the fumble and the player being down, but all FOX shows are the non-time-synced view from multiple angles. Unless you've seen the angles the replay officials used, along with the time stamps of each, you are not in any position to determine if the call was correct.
That being said, I think measuring to fractions of a second on reviews when basic stuff like spotting the ball is only accurate to like 2 feet, and holding by offensive linemen isn't called like 4/5 times, with little rhyme or reason for why it is called the other 1/5 times, is silly. I'd prefer it if replay were used to overturn egregiously bad calls, rather than very close calls.
November 2nd, 2021 at 6:49 PM ^
In all honesty, I assumed he was down when it happened live and mentally took the points off the board. Therefore, it didn't bother me that much -- until later when the TV guys kept talking about it.
I was more bothered by not getting touchdowns. Me: "Dammit, another field goal...arrgh. I really hope the defense can hold up the rest of the way, because this can really come back to bite you."
I still feel like we shot ourselves in the foot with Plaxico Buress' gun.
November 3rd, 2021 at 1:25 AM ^
Didn’t know about the time sync but makes sense. Assuming they use GPS time?
November 3rd, 2021 at 3:08 PM ^
While your explanation is spot on that also means that he regained possession after the initial hit and swipe. That is where I have a problem with the call.
November 2nd, 2021 at 7:15 PM ^
You're kidding. They grabbed this post? Really? That's hilarious.
November 2nd, 2021 at 9:53 PM ^
As me and my mates walked out of the stadium on Saturday, with the catcalls, slurs and human physique-bending analogies ringing in my ears, it occurred to me just HOW MUCH we live in their heads, rent free. The poorest losers they are, I thought, until hearing them made me smile over and over. They can't let go, they will never be able to let go, even in victory they are defeated. This was the first loss for me out of 4 I attended at spartan stadium, so previous to this I had never really understood the depth of jealousy and envy that exists in that fanbase. It is incomprehensible unless you experience it. It made us laugh so much that they became infuriated with us laughing back at them, and then I knew we had the ultimate power over them. We may lose the game from time to time, but the war has already been won. Go Blue!
November 3rd, 2021 at 3:41 PM ^
Yeah, who isn’t seething with jealousy of the 2004 big ten champs?!
November 2nd, 2021 at 11:16 AM ^
I disagreed with the call as much as the next guy, but the they did say what tipped their decision. They said he had control of the ball when his shin hit the ground. Does that make any sense? Idk. But they always explain their decision. Do you want them submitting a written report or something?
November 2nd, 2021 at 11:22 AM ^
I don’t think there is any doubt what they said. The question is, what video angle gives the evidence beyond any doubt to prove that’s the case and overturn the call?
None of the angles Fox aired had the ball visible at the point his shin touched. Still frames since then actually show the ball is loose when the shin is down.
So the question remains, what evidence did the booth use to overturn the call?
This sport will continue to get bumps and bruises in critical moments like this one until the process adds accountability after the fact - and for all players, coaches, and fans involved i don’t think that’s asking too much.
Accountability brings improvement and that should be something all parties want.
November 2nd, 2021 at 11:33 AM ^
Three things were evident from whatever they showed on Fox
- Thorne lost possession when Ojabo hit him
- His shin hit the ground first
- The ball popped up after his shin hit the ground
Nothing was shown on Fox to determine if he did (conclusively or not) regain possession of the ball between bullet 1 and 2 below. Unless there is some magical evidence available to the replay official and not shown on Fox - I cannot see how that can be overturned. Even if you think they (violated their rules by) reofficiating it - I still don't more than 50% of an impartial observer would call him down by contact by the videos and angles they showed alone.
November 2nd, 2021 at 12:03 PM ^
Here is what is "evident" to me. When we're up 30-14 midway through the 3rd quarter, we should win the game.
November 2nd, 2021 at 12:58 PM ^
thanks, man, and way to go - you really blew the lid off that one.
November 2nd, 2021 at 1:02 PM ^
Could have been 34-14 and then it’s three scores and they’re trying to throw their way back into the game…there had already been two picks and constant pressure on Thorne. While we’ll never know, I don’t envision that playing out well for MSU.
November 2nd, 2021 at 1:44 PM ^
To me, there were 3 items BEFORE HALF which sealed the fate of this one:
The second half the defense was porous and the offense was not reliable, but the game should have been close to out of reach two or three separate times.
And they were STILL up 30-14 with 20 mins to go.
- Corum's dropped TD pass, would have put us up 14-0
- Next possession - 2 quick first downs to set up a 1st and goal from 4, called back because of holding on Johnson (called after whistle from backjudge). 1st and goal from the 4 at that point would have been HUGE.
- Overturned strip/sack
November 2nd, 2021 at 2:15 PM ^
Speaking of Fox angles, was there a shot from the pylon on the Walker fumble at the goal line? Seems like that would have been the best shot, but I don't remember seeing it.
November 2nd, 2021 at 7:51 PM ^
yeah, I dont' remember seeing them utilizing that footage.
November 3rd, 2021 at 2:20 PM ^
Yes! That is the most important point & no one mentions it: he doesn’t ever have control of the ball from the moment he’s hit, it’s out of his hands, pinned to crotch = fumble, from instant he is hit, so it doesn’t matter when his shin touches. It’s a fumble. A correct review confirms the call. And absolutely no possible way in any universe you have indisputable evidence of the opposite of what happened & what was called.
November 2nd, 2021 at 12:23 PM ^
I think it would also be useful to know why the on-field official called it a fumble. Where did he differ from the booth--did he not see the shin touch and thought the play was still live after that? Or did they disagree on when the ball came loose? If it's the former I understand the decision to overturn even though I disagree with them both about when the ball came loose. If it's the latter, they seem to have reofficiated the play.
I think I'm trying to make more of a general point, than one regarding this particular play. UEFA's replay implementation was absolutely excellent this summer, and I think it's for two reasons: (1) they're very forthcoming with the visual evidence, including whatever technology is used (the still photo showing an offsides line is on the TV as soon as the call is made, the replay the ref's looking at on his monitor is also on our screen as he's watching it) and (2) the referee and the booth are in communication as soon as the booth's signaled an issue (and although they won't admit it, probably before). Did the ref not see the ball touch a hand, or did he see it and rule it wasn't intentional? If the booth knows why the ref made the call he made, they know when to say "ok, that's your call" or "that's not what happened, you'd better take another look."
Which brings me to (3), which I didn't think of: in soccer the booth serves in an advisory capacity only; the ref still has the final say.
November 2nd, 2021 at 11:24 AM ^
They can obviously say whatever they want. It will never happen, but I'd like to see them provide a still frame shot (or a series of time synced still shots), that shows the moment where his shin hit the ground and he had control.
I'm also confused by the pass that may have hit the ground and was ruled a catch. It looked like it had been ruled a no catch by the officials on the field. But, it seemed like coming out of replay the ref implied the original ruling was a catch. So, what was the original ruling? And, if it was originally ruled a no catch, on what basis was it overturned?
November 2nd, 2021 at 12:03 PM ^
I understand why you want that now, but do you really want refs doing all that shit during a game? It's another argument to put on the pile of "indisputable evidence isn't adhered to" but it's the system we've got and I personally don't think more red tape is what we need.
November 3rd, 2021 at 8:15 AM ^
Didn't mean to imply they should provide it during the game. But, after the game they should be accountable for their calls, especially calls which are not bang-gang. Knowing they would have to back up their calls later, ought to make them more focused on getting the calls correct.
Supposedly the league reviews the reffing, but how strong is that feedback? If I recall, the refs from the 2016 OSU-Michigan game went on that year to represent the B1G in the CFP. If anything, they seem to have been rewarded for they way they called that game. So, there appears to be little, if any, incentive for a ref working to improve.
November 2nd, 2021 at 11:36 AM ^
OK but not only did we never see a clear view of the ball from any angle, what we could see made it appear like the ball was knocked loose on initial contact, then appeared briefly pinned against his leg (when the shin was down), and fully came loose upon hitting the ground. In these situations, usually the initial time at which the ball comes loose and the carrier starts losing control is when the fumble is considered a fumble by review...we may not have a clear way to discern this (perhaps he did have enough control of the ball to be considered "down" when the shin touched) but that's why it should have stayed with the call on the field.
November 2nd, 2021 at 12:00 PM ^
I 100% agree with you on this call. I'm asking what, beyond the ref saying what changed (shin down, ball under control) people want them to do in that situation? Do we want longer reviews because the refs now have to highlight keyframes and such?
I don't think this situation is a problem with the system, it's a problem with this call.
It's fine for us as fans to look at it and say "we got jobbed, it was a bad call" and leave it at that. There's no perfect refereeing system.
November 2nd, 2021 at 12:18 PM ^
Ok. I may be making this up. Don't know. But I feel like there Hockey had a video shot that showed what the booth was viewing. Did I make this up? I feel like this used to be a thing in some sport.
Even if they can't do live, they should at least present the evidence later.
System is never going to be perfect. But, in this day and age with the amount of money they are pulling in, I refuse to accept that this is the best model they got. I will figure out a fair system, if they want to pay me a good amount to be their consultant. Heck, I will do it for free if that will improve this goddamn system. Sick of keep hearing the same crap every time about nothing can be done. Yes, it can be done if there is a will.
November 2nd, 2021 at 12:33 PM ^
Not sure about hockey, but (at least during the bubble) the NBA showed the video on the officials' monitor on the home TV feed. UEFA and FIFA have also done this.
November 2nd, 2021 at 12:49 PM ^
That could be it. I have seen it somewhere. What is disappoint is, they would use that time to show more commercials while we all are dying here trying to find out what the hell happened. Even the commentators don't know what is going on. They have a so called expert come and explain, but the official version is off limits. It makes you wonder why.
November 2nd, 2021 at 2:11 PM ^
I had two objections with overturning the call. First, it was ruled a fumble and TD on the field. And that is supposed to guide when there is no otherwise indisputable picture demonstrating otherwise.
And to that point, there was no definitive evidence changing that. The shin being down wasn't definitive unless you replayed the action multiple times, and even then, in the continuing action as Thorne lost the ball in his takedown by Ojabo he never actually went to the ground as he landed on Ojabo's prone body underneath. All of that, should have prompted the booth to stick with the call, instead of claiming a body part that may have glanced momentarily while pivoting toward the ground should overturn what that dramatic action more than essentially produced as a result.
What is definitively down by contact? Thorne's body rolled over Ojabo's on the play, so his shin was only glancing downward as his momentum shifted during the tackle. But there was only one of minute, potential ground contact before everything changed. That to me destroys the argument since it didn't apply in any other context of a questionable ruling allowed to stand by first call the rest of the game. Let's be consistent if we're applying the principle or don't use it as one.
November 2nd, 2021 at 3:05 PM ^
Totally agree. Isn't the point that this was a call on the field that wasn't obviously incorrect, so why fucking change it? If anything, this was clearly a fumble. The ball clearly starts slipping out of Thorne's hands after he is hit. He doesn't have firm control of the ball at any point after Ojabo hits him. That's a fucking fumble. Don't overthink or "re-officiate" it.
So the result is that the refs insert themselves into a critical moment where they are not needed. They reward Michigan State on a play where Michigan should be rewarded. Ojabo and Hutchinson make a great play and should be rewarded for that play. This is usually when people say ball don't lie. (Of course, this is the Sparty game, so the ensuing punt takes a ridiculously favorable bounce for MSU, not to mention that Objabo's other strip-sack falls harmlessly into the hands of an o-lineman).
I actually liked that the Walker touchdown was upheld. He made a great play and scored a touchdown. Are you going to take a TD off the board because maybe he let the ball slip from his hand two inches before he crossed the plane? No. Reward him for his great play. The same exact standard should have applied for the Ojabo hit. The inconsistency, as well as the lack of basic common sense and of respect for football, is appalling.
November 2nd, 2021 at 2:11 PM ^
What makes it even more egregious is that they had just upheld the Walker TD where he clearly lost the ball before his foot hit the line, and his foot was ahead of the ball. I’m convinced he actually did lose it before it crossed and a pylon cam would have shown that. But Fox never gave us a pylon cam view. Then they gave us a pylon cam view of another play later. Wtf?
November 2nd, 2021 at 12:11 PM ^
Yes. A written report in color would be great. Being snarky because you were snarky. ;)
I chose the wrong word. It is just easy to say whatever the hell they want but you are taking 7 points off the board. Need a better process. That explanation may have satisfied you, it didn't satisfy me.
November 2nd, 2021 at 12:13 PM ^
lol, I would like a report after the fact as well!
It's always going to come down to judgment calls by humans (or is it?) so I'll take whatever system doesn't cause the game to be even longer than it already is.
November 2nd, 2021 at 12:22 PM ^
May be more booth time and less commercial time? That will never happen but one can dream. Of course, if the booth is not competent, it doesn't matter.
November 2nd, 2021 at 3:42 PM ^
thing is we didn't see a view of that, as soon as he was hit the ball started moving down his body, he had LOST control of it and it was on the way out.
to me that is a fumble just like if you get hit from behind and your arm moves forward AFTER contact it should be a fumble not an incomplete pass because we have all seen the QB throw his arm forward trying to get teh refs to buy he was throwing it.
he was hit, the ball was coming loose so it doesn't matter where his shin hit, play it in slow motion and don't stop it and you can see the hit caused the ball to move downward and keep moving downward until it shot out.
Crazy thing is the refs on the field called it right and replay botched it, obviously others agree or they wouldn't be making it a point of emphasis.
November 2nd, 2021 at 10:57 AM ^
I believe you. That it takes MSU F'in Michigan over for idiot refs/B1G/Ward whoever to realize this is dumb.
That being said, excited how Michigan responds. They about to bomb Indiana to oblivion. LFG.
November 2nd, 2021 at 11:15 AM ^
I agree with you. I'm hearing all the right things. Sanristil about the players only meeting. Harbaugh on Inside Michigan football.
It explains why Purdue is only a 3 point underdog where Indiana close 20.
November 2nd, 2021 at 11:38 AM ^
If ever there was a time for this team to pull out a "pissed off Ohio State after a loss blows out the next team" kinda game, this is it. Time to prove we really were the better team Saturday and now we're out for blood
November 2nd, 2021 at 11:40 AM ^
oh its happening. I saw it in the passing game and you can hear it in the post presser of Cade. Get ready for some fun times.
November 2nd, 2021 at 1:37 PM ^
"oh it's happening "
Sure, Charlie Brown, sure
November 2nd, 2021 at 10:55 PM ^
we shall see
November 2nd, 2021 at 10:58 AM ^
trend setters they are......
soon fans will be burning couches everywhere after wins, putting college football fans squarely in the crosshairs of COP27!
November 2nd, 2021 at 11:01 AM ^
I chuckled. Well done.
November 2nd, 2021 at 11:00 AM ^
Michigan is Leaders and Best for a reason, yo. Trend setters in every sense.
November 2nd, 2021 at 11:04 AM ^
When's the Henry Ruggs III news going to be reported? I can't believe Schefty isn't all over it yet.