This Week's Obsession: Ingredients for Suck Pie Comment Count

Seth

humblepie

Peter Frampton:Michigan's offense::Let's stop this analogy right now.

It's nearing Thanksgiving; which means it's time to make pie! Who likes pie? Everyone likes pie! Unless it's a "why our offense sucks so much" pie. Alas, you have all been sampling lots of "Why our offense sucks so much" pie these last few weeks, and we've identified most of the ingredients in this suck pie. What we haven't done yet is say how much any one ingredient is contributing relative to any other. This seems important.

So, I'm going to give you a list of identified ingredients in this suck pie, and you're going to tell me--pie chart like (i.e. adds up to 100%)--how much each suck factor, in your estimated opinion, has gone into our pie:

  1. Fans demand Michigan Manliness. Thus putting the previous regime on not-firm ground and necessitating another transition and talk of MANBALL for stupid political reasons. Rosenberg/Snyder go here.
  2. Rich Rod! One OL in 2010 and his own suck pie of defense that necessitated another transition. GERG goes here. Zero RS juniors goes here.
  3. The Process. Which helped doom the 2011 offensive line class. "Just two OL, both of them fliers, in two classes!" goes here. "None of our tight ends are old enough to buy beer!" goes here. "We're stuck running high school blocking schemes because interior OL are too young!" goes here.
    10766148686_1ecb64869f_b
    If you believe this is a result of Nebraska's defense having a sudden aneurism of competence (hence all the blood), please answer #10 "Universe" on your cards. [Fuller]

  4. Hoke demands MANBALL! Only if you think there's an executive order from Hoke that forced Borges to use more "big"--ie TEs and FBs instead of WRs--formations and man-blocking.
  5. Borges can't cook fusion cuisine. Incoherent playcalling and gameplanning, players constantly put in bad positions and asked to do more than their skills suggest they're good at. RPS minuses go here.
  6. Dithered on MANBALL transition for Denard. Spent 2011 and 2012 trying to be all things; decision not to sacrifice those years to transition is costing us in 2013. "Older guys can't MANBALL" goes here.
  7. Dithering in 2013. Personnel switches, gimmick offenses, acts of desperation burned practice time, retarded player development, and contributed to snowballing effect. "Tackle over" goes here.
  8. Funk/OL and execution. Offensive linemen not doing the things that should reasonably be expected of them given their talent/experience levels. "Schofield is missing slide protections" goes here.
  9. Ferrigno/Jackson and execution. Backs and tight ends who can't block or run routes (if you think this is just on them being too young, that goes elsewhere; if you think Funchess ought to be able to crack down and Toussaint get under a guy by now it goes here)
  10. Bloodymindedness of Universe. IE anything else: Spain, Monkey Rodeo, MSU broke Devin, opponents are just that good, etc.

[After the jump, the lede, buried]

the results come in…

------------------------

Ace: Hoo boy. 5-7 are kinda tough not to lump together, but here goes nothing.

------------------------

Coach Brown: Any way I can get some more percentage points?

------------------------

Altogether now…

Ingredients

Yellow shades are problems Michigan needs to address, blue are things in the past that we can only hope will improve naturally. We put about 2/3rds of the troubles are on the current staff. Clinking embliggens.

------------------------

Now we explain…

Brian: I assume most of these are straightforward with the exception of #9, which is a lot of blame to heap on 2 or 3 of the 7 or 8 blockers on a particular play. But I have just watched AJ Williams execute the worst imaginable pass protection on a Gardner sack and I'm saucy. I'm saucy because Justice Hayes saw that and aborted his attempt to block a blitzing LB, leaving that guy to run free at Gardner, so when Gardner escaped the first guy he still got hammered.

That the TEs and RBs are awful at blocking is the hidden story of the season. Funchess is one thing (and he's still really bad); Williams and Toussaint and everyone else at tailback are another. Williams has seemingly gone backwards and the inability to find anyone who can pick up a blitz until game 10 is unbelievable. How much better is this offense if Vincent Smith is still here? Think about that. And then tell Fred Jackson to stop drinking three different beverages and do something about it.

------------------------

Seth: I've got Borges shouldering more blame than you other guys so I'll explain why. I just watched the same play as Brian and that inspired Hokepoints yesterday. That the TEs and RBs can't block is as much of a problem as the fact that the OL can't block. The difference is while you have to play five OL every play, nobody's forcing the coaches to roll out five fullbacks. You're allowed to have receivers, and Michigan has some good ones being critically under-used.

You can watch too.

Borges's answer to teams blitzing has been to get heavier: more A.J. Williams, more Joe Kerridge, and barely more Dileo than Paskorz. On Saturday they often lined up A.J. Williams as the only eligible receiver to one side, and then sometimes tried to roll away from that side while the opponent blitzed, knowing full well that the pass blocking can't hold up long enough to drag a receiver over there. Rather than have their running backs run a pattern, they put Kerridge in at RB to say "yes we're passing, but at least you can't rag doll him a la Toussaint." This is the boxing equivalent of curling up in a ball and covering your face with your hands.

Anyway, I'm less concerned that a bunch of true sophomores and younger aren't good at blocking yet (it's a skill) than I am about their coaches throwing them into the fire while leaving Dileo and Chesson on the sideline, so I gave a bunch of those points to Borges.

I've also got just 5% on Rich Rod while the rest of you think he's a quarter of the problem. It was egregious to not recruit more bodies in 2010 but they had to be useful bodies and he was doing that recruiting under a 3-9 season and the cloud of crap from the Free Press witch hunt. He also had tons of redshirt freshmen on the roster so he was selling playing time as a junior/senior. He wouldn't be the first coach to pass on bad prospects and bank on a big OL class the following year.

As for putting the program in a rut with his mishandling of the defense and getting himself fired, well, it's been three years. Of Hoke's classmates, Kevin Wilson inherited an offensive roster with great receivers and nothing else and created a passing juggernaut that makes Oregon look slow, Jerry Kill built an identity at Minnesota, and James Franklin has Vanderbilt recruiting like an SEC team. That those guys had a few months more to recruit their first classes I put on The Process. That Rich Rod had to pick from the value bin for D.C.s and didn't get a fourth year I put on Martin, and the fanbase (including Rosenberg/Snyder) who didn't give the guy much of a chance.

jerry-kill
Minnesota and Indiana's head coaches as positive examples: now there's something I never in a million years thought I'd be saying right now.

My points for Bloodyminded Universe is for Michigan State (of all people) having a pulverizing defense that gleefully beat the last vestiges of Notre Dame Devin Gardner out of him.

------------------------

Brian: You are far too kind to Rodriguez. There can be no excuse for bringing in just one offensive lineman in a year and even with Jake Fisher, his "load up" the next year consisted of Posada, who he took super early, Miller, also a really early take, Bryant, and hypothetically Fisher. Michigan is barely less screwed if RR sticks around, and recruiting super-heavy OL like Posada and Bryant a year after taking one (ONE! ONNNNNNNNNNEEEEE!) OL, that a center, is malpractice.

------------------------

Ace: Brian, is that your rationale behind pinning such a small percentage of the blame on The Process? I agree with you that the failure to recruit more than one OL in the 2010 class created an inevitable time when depth (or at least depth with any experience) would be a major issue. While taking chances with Posada and Bryant looks bad now, however, there are always going to be linemen that don't pan out, big or small (Christian Pace and perhaps Miller being examples of the latter). Even though The Process cost Michigan just one Jake Fisher, I believe one Jake Fisher would make an enormous difference in the quality of this year's line, and therefore it's a major factor in why the offense hasn't functioned well this year; much like Schofield, Fisher started his career at Oregon as a guard before shifting out to tackle.

------------------------

Brian: Maybe you're right, but if you regard Jake Fisher as the recruit who may or may not work out instead of the obviously very good player he is, then that's just a small part of the larger issue. You are probably right that I underestimated the impact since it's not just Fisher they're missing but a reasonable Fisher replacement they would have acquired if Hoke had more time.

------------------------

Seth: So since this was kinda close to that argument you had last week I thought I'd put the question to Space Coyote as well. His answers:

spacecoyote

(UPDATE 1:30 PM: Due to a bad sort I had the wrong data before. New chart now.)

Check the comments in a few minutes for his reasons. I guess that puts the disagreement in context: he argues Borges shouldn't be expected to be able to do very much with these guys because the positional coaches are failing; the argument is over how you divide up what is, at most, a third of the problem.

------------------------

BiSB: Putting that much blame on The Process assumes Michigan would have done materially better with an extra month, but I'm not sure if I see it. They landed three offensive linemen, they just happened to land on a guy who can't stay healthy (Bryant), a guy who probably didn't want to play football (Posada), and a guy who still needs two eat two or three more sandwiches (Miller). They also landed two quality-looking TE's: Chris Barnett and Frank Clark (hence the General Bloodymindedness of the Universe). Maybe they land Jake Fisher if Hoke had been hired after the Ohio State Blerg, but Fisher didn't even commit to Oregon until February, so I sort of doubt it. Besides, assuming one quality guard would make a significant difference in the lineup ignores the lessons we should have learned from the Kyle Kalis Is Neo With A Mean Streak episode.

8646501226_936f70e3fc_o
*Hugs Christ Bryant* It's not your fault.
[Upchurch]

There seems to be a split on the Dithering in 2013. For my part, I look at where the team was in the first few weeks versus where they are now, and you never see this kind of regression without serious injuries (and Michigan has been fairly healthy). Notre Dame isn't great, but they have a competent run defense, and Fitz was able to rush for 3.2 YPC with that god-forsaken stretch. They brought a flawed but functional offense into September. They're dragged the lifeless corpse of an offense into Kinnick. Michigan put up 41 against Notre Dame. They put up 6, 13, and 9 points in the first 60 minutes of their last three games, two of which were against very bad defenses.

I don't know if the "spend two years gearing toward power, then go to the stretch, then go to tackle over, then go back to iso and inside zone" thing messed with skill development or messed with players' heads or what. But either Michigan's scheme is so simple even a Nebraska can solve it (which would be a Fusion Cuisine problem) or the coaches tinkered and broke the thing (which would be a dithering problem). Add in the eight different starters on interior line, and yeah.

------------------------

Mathlete: One point of clarification for me, my large RichRod percentage is because of his massive failure at recruiting linemen. Beyond the obvious no o-linemen is bad, I think the continuity gap is a major untold side effect.

DD1242
If I didn't have to guess, I'd gladly confess to anything I might've tried, if I was with her too long.

A typical team will have 3-5 guys per class, providing a chance for those guys to bond and a big group of guys within a class that they can learn from and assimilate quickly with. When you essentially have a two year gap, that continuity is gone and that's pretty uncharted territory for an o-line. The opportunities for mentorship, learning from guys similar in age, all of those team building things that are some times overstated, but are by most accounts highly critical for the offensive line are totally missing. That flow of players, leadership and training within teammates is absent. Right now, Michigan is in the process of rebuilding but that lead class are redshirt freshmen.

------------------------

Seth: I probably am being too nice to Rich Rod—sorry Section 1 and His Dudeness, you can have the back-pats back. But I think we're very wrong to look at it and say "if they only had Jake Fisher," or whatever. I keep going back to linemen like stability and things outside of RR's control caused Michigan to not have that. Anyway, had he brought in a couple of low 3-stars for his system who's to say they wouldn't have transferred anyway once Hoke arrived with MANBALL? Actually, scratch that: Burzynski is tiny and they were all about playing him. Anyway if Rodriguez had taken a moment away from FREE SAFETY PANIC to grab some OL fliers in 2010, we're probably talking about how spread dudes suck at MANBALL right now instead of how freshmen suck at it.

Comments

M-Wolverine

November 20th, 2013 at 3:42 PM ^

This place would have burned down.  Most people here still wanted to keep him, and it wasn't till after the bowl game that it turned a bit.  And we weren't hiring anyone before Stanford was done with their bowl game because Harbaugh wasn't taking any jobs till then. And if we had hired someone before Harbaugh was ready to go someplace, the hire (Hoke or whoever) would be DOA. 

There might be some quibbling about post bowl game speed (What did they talk about for two days?) but the idea of firing a coach mid-season is revisionist history...and ignores how we had gotten a black eye from hiring Rich away before the bowl game just 3 years earlier.

MI Expat NY

November 20th, 2013 at 4:22 PM ^

While neither of you are necessarily wrong in some of your points.  I for one wanted to keep him through to the bowl game and based on the timing of the firing, I thought it was a mistake to not give him another year.  

But what I said was that I think Brandon had made up his mind that he was going to fire RR after the PSU game, the remainder of the season was all elementary.  And don't think just because lots of people here were still in support of RR, that the establishment wasn't ready to throw him overboard.  

There's also no revisionalist history in any of my posts.  There were plenty of people at the end of the regular season calling on Brandon to shit or get off the pot, even many RR supporters.  Dragging the uncertainty through the bowl season was detrimental to the team and that year's recruiting class.  If Harbaugh insisted on sticking with his team to a meaningless BCS bowl instead of taking his "dream job," that should have been a risk we were willing to take.  

Bodogblog

November 20th, 2013 at 4:39 PM ^

You can't possibly know when Brandon decided to fire RR.  This is inserting an unverifiable assumption to bolster your point.  By his actions - including giving RR an opportunity to plead his case post bowl game - you'd have to conclude Brandon had not decided to take action before the Gator Bowl.

If you were AD, and you hired Hoke before Stanford played their bowl game, and Harbaugh came out afterward and said "I wanted to go to Michigan, but they wouldn't wait and let me coach my team, so I'm going to San Fran", people would hate you forever.

MI Expat NY

November 20th, 2013 at 5:57 PM ^

You're right, I can't know, but lets start looking at things with your assertions in mind:  It takes time to make a hire of a college FB coach, presumably meaning more than one week.  It's also unfair to start the search before RR is fired.  I don't know that Brandon started the due diligence process before firing RR, therefore we should assume it didn't happen.

Now, look at the facts: RR was fired on the 5th, Hoke was hired on the 12th.  By your logic, Brandon didn't take enough time or do his due diligence.  By my logic, he started the process before firing RR.  Which makes more sense?  

Yes, I can't know that RR didn't want to fire him after the PSU game, but I have a strong hunch.  But what I do know is that was the point where lots of people began to call for a change, and if Brandon didn't begin his due dilligence at that point, he wasn't doing his job.  

And again on the Harbaugh thing.  If he wouldn't leave Stanford for Michigan with a bowl game yet to play, then he probably wasn't all that committed to Michigan in the first place and wasn't worth screwing up a recruiting class over.

M-Wolverine

November 21st, 2013 at 4:31 PM ^

Everyone here at the time thought the 5th to the 12th was taking TOO MUCH time.  He fires Rich after talking with him and Rich having no answers about the defense or doesn't like the excuses. Tries to get Harbaugh. Wasn't it by Friday that week that rumors of Harbaugh to the pros were coming out? Learns Harbaugh's wife wants to stay put, Jim likes the NFL challenge. Turns to Brady, and on his way stops by Miles to placate that part of the fanbase.  Likes what he hears from Hoke, checks him out, sets a press conference for the next week.

And it doesn't matter whether Harbaugh would leave Stanford for Michigan or not. It's the perception to the fans if it looked like we didn't even consider Harbaugh and he turned to the NFL when we hired someone else. Brandon is roasted and Hoke is DOA because "we should have hired Harbaugh!!!".....even though his family didn't want him coaching here.

Bodogblog

November 20th, 2013 at 4:51 PM ^

The press conference was the 5th, so he waited a few days to finalize it.  Maybe he should have fired him at the airport, Haden style, and had the presser on the 2nd.  Maybe he could have hurried it up by a few days over the rest of that span.  But was another week going to salvage the class?  Of course not.

I'd rather have him take the time and talk to those people.  "The Process" is a red herring, and only becomes defensible when adding a rider along the lines of "he knew he was going to hire Hoke at X date, so all the time after that was wasted and could have been spent recruiting".  This category should be lumped under coaching change.

Ron Utah

November 20th, 2013 at 12:33 PM ^

  1. Rich Rod - 33%  We are extremely short on scholarship OL.  Not having any experienced, quality options is a huge problem.  It's easy for fans to forget this in an era of MOAR STARZ!!! recruting, but even great OL players don't usually blossom until their third or fourth year in a program.  Lewan is the exception, not the rule.  And it's not just OL recruiting--we basically lost an entire class of players due to RR and the transition.  The notion that it's not RR's fault that he got fired is silly: RR completely failed on the defensive side of the ball.  That was his undoing more than any of the outside stuff.
  2. 2013 "dithering" - 17%  I don't believe what we're doing is dithering.  Did anyone say RR was dithering in 2009?  Borges and Hoke spent the spring and fall camp saying, "We are going to transition to our preferred style of offense this year, no matter what."  You can call that stubborn, obnoxious, stupid, etc., but this team is never going to get good at the new style without actually doing it.  Most of the team is composed of kids that were recruited for this new style; sadly, they are inexperienced and under-developed.  Borges and Hoke KNOW they are calling plays that aren't perfect for our hodgepodge roster of RR legacies and Hoke pups, but they want the team to learn the system for the years to come.  Transition has to happen sometime.  As for the "gimmicks," that's just an OC and a HC trying desperately to find something that will work with this group that is within their philosophy.  Do I like it?  No.  But I understand what they're trying to do.
  3. Borges - 15%  If things look bad in 2014 and 2015, I'll be calling for Borges' head.  For now, he is trying to implement a system with players that are either super-young or were not recruited for this system.  That said, he makes lots of decisions I don't like--running into stacked fronts with a weak OL, not using Funchess in the red zone enough, not using 3 WR sets often enough, too much play action on obvious passing downs, not enough draws, etc.
  4. Denard "dithering" - 15%  The decision to try to make the best use of one of the best and most beloved players in Michigan history cost us two years of learning the system Hoke and AB want to implement.  I believe it was the right decision, but we should have seen more pain coming in the first year of a basically new offense.
  5. Hoke - 7%  For reasons already explained, Hoke shares some of the blame.  He and AB are committed to the new philosophy, and they will run it even if it doesn't work.  Why?  They are laying the foundation for the future.  Just as with Borges, I will be much more critical of Hoke if he doesn't have this thing humming by 2015 (and it needs to be much better than this year in 2014).
  6. Funk/OL & Ferrigno/Jackson - 5% each  Yeah, I get that we're young.  Yeah, I get that it's a new system.  But we should be able to execute fundamental techniques more effectively.  Again, these guys get a bit of a break because of the youth and transition, but we better show marked improvement at these positions next year, or I'll be calling for changes.

Basically, I believe we are seeing the natural growing pains of a transition to a new system compounded by youth, some occasionally silly play-calling, and the RR dearth.  I expect improvement in 2014 and great things in 2015.

M-Wolverine

November 20th, 2013 at 1:19 PM ^

And I'm not sure how long it would take me to add up all my percentages, so I'll just comment here.

Rich Rod- there are a lot of holes. The fact that there were basically no tight ends on the roster after Koger (because he didn't need/want them) is compounding our Oline issues. But mostly what you say.

Dithering.  I think they mean more "o-line switch, putting Lewan at TE" etc.  Which yeah. I don't blame them for trying to implement the system at this point, because there aren't enough spread guys that it wouldn't just be negatively impacting the non-spread types. But I do think they need to identify things more quickly and stick with them. 

Borges does seem to have a tendancy to run things into the ground without change. And there is this maddening flip flop of calling a game balls to the wall and then crawling into a shell. I might up the Hoke part of this because I do get the sense that Hoke wants to run more and a true Borges offense might involved a lot more passing. 

Denard. For a program in a perfect world for now we'd have made Devin the QB and Denard an offensive weapon. But he probably would have left, everyone would have gone apeshit, and the program would be under fire. And Devin really wasn't ready to be a better QB a couple of years ago. So developing a system, yeah, it's put us behind the curve a bit.  As what a program had to do for itself, its players, and PR it's EXACTLY what they had to do.

 

 

Michigan Arrogance

November 20th, 2013 at 7:16 PM ^

i don't see how one can reasonably assign blame to RR for not recruiting TEs for Hoke's system.

Not recruiting OLs, sure. you need Ols no matter what, but RR used the TE sparingly and spend that 'capitol' on slot receivers and defense for obvious reasons.

IDK, place it with "general transition costs" instead of RR

BradP

November 20th, 2013 at 2:53 PM ^

I have not noticed Borges really trying to "implement a system" as much as he is calling a grab bag of plays he expects to gain yards.

If he were implementing a system, he would be able to make it work at least somewhat with less than optimal personnel, as the nature of the system itself would be good for yards.

Tubes

November 20th, 2013 at 12:50 PM ^

Lloyd Carr deserves a small piece of this humble pie as well.  Perhaps not so much for this year's offense specifically, but definitely for the overall state of the program.

mgobaran

November 20th, 2013 at 12:58 PM ^

You can say that for the state of the program for under Rich Rod, but we are in our 6th year removed from his retirement. A retirement everyone knew who was coming, btw. And no one thought it'd be a good idea to set up a contingency plan.

Anyways. I am going to have to issue a statute of limitation on that one. 

Heinous Wagner

November 20th, 2013 at 12:50 PM ^

. . .that one more game like the Nebraska game would have caused me to do a four-day creep. Thanks for the Humble Pie meme. Steve Marriott, music's version of Vincent Smith (tiny but tough), would be proud.

Tater

November 20th, 2013 at 12:54 PM ^


"Suck pie," like any other culinary "masterpiece," requires preperation and just the right blend of ingredients.

The missing ingredients with which the rest of it could never have happened:

1.  LC "loses his taste for recruiting."

2.  Blowout loss to USC after loss to Ohio, leading USC players to say variations of, "We knew what they were going to run before they ran it."

3.  The Horror.

4. LC encourages all players to accept signed transfer papers after his last game. 

5.  LC sabotages Michigan recruiting from his office in Schembechler Hall, even while he is being paid what amounted to an honorarium salary.

6.  "Michigan Men" tell instate HS coaches not to send their kids to Michigan, thus giving Sparty a foothold which they still haven't relinquished.

RR was not given the opportunity to dig Michigan out of the hole that LC and his blind followers created.  Brady Hoke deserves the chance.  So does Al Borges.  David Brandon deserves to GTFO and run for political office.

"Michigan fans" need to become Michigan Fans and start supporting the current staff as it tries to dig out of LC's gaping chasm.

M-Wolverine

November 20th, 2013 at 12:57 PM ^

If you took out the highest and lowest marks in the array, does it change your average that much? (Say take out the outliers of Seth and Mathlete in "Rich Rod.")

And it's fun to match the jobs and backgrounds of the people and how they assigned blame. Seeing how Ace's recruiting bent influences things like "The Process" and "Rich Rod," etc....

mejunglechop

November 20th, 2013 at 12:59 PM ^

This is one the best posts in a while. Quantifying blame is obviously subjective, but it provided for a great baseline for disagreement and discussion (and without flaming!) Kudos for including spacecoyote's take as well. Ultimately everyone agrees that Rodriguez's recruiting, the process, Borges, Funk, TE and RB blocking and dithering this year have hurt our offense we just disagree on the degrees. So let's be civil and not take disagreements personally.

Personally I'd peg OL coaching problems at 20 and Borges fusion cuisine at 15. The Mgoconsensus seems about right everywhere else.

aiglick

November 20th, 2013 at 1:44 PM ^

Put me down for installing the "2008 Capital One Bowl offense" for this year's bowl game. If we can beat Iowa next week and grab the bowl game 9-4 is at least showing improvement, kind of. It basically means we are in a similar position to last year but if people are right that this is a year of tranisition then we will have paid one year of "transition costs". That means next year's offense should be somewhat competent. Not world beaters but similar to State's offense this year where they do enough to win games since the defense should start to look prettty dang good (A-/B+). In 2015 the offense should be similar to this year's defense, a B unit with promise going forward if we continue recruiting at this level. The coaches are on the clock. Also, I'm not giving up hope for Ohio State but unfortunately realisitcally it is going to be really hard to win that game this year. Never say die though.

BlueMan80

November 20th, 2013 at 2:08 PM ^

The foundation of the team and the program is just gone.  Carr left the cupboard on the bare side, Rich Rod basically blew up what was left of the foundation to build over, and Brady came in and tried to work with what was there while trying to reshape the foundation into the airplane he wants while it's flying.  This is something that doesn't get fixed or changed overnight.  You don't have a mature core of players passing on a tradition of winning, expectations based on tangible results, and continuity that demonstrates if we keep doing these things, we'll keep being successful.  So, you have experience in some areas, total lack of experience in others, and a team grappling with what it takes to win.  Brady says they lack continuity and I'd agree with that statement.  The talent is there.  They have lots of problems between their ears -- confidence, trust (I do my job, he'll do his job), over thinking things while in learning mode.  Put bad play calling, coaching inconsistenices, and all that other stuff on top and you've got a nice hot mess.  Hopefully, last week's win laid another brick in the new foundation and will be a solid place to take the next step from.  We'll see on Sat.

Indiana Blue

November 20th, 2013 at 2:14 PM ^

does nearly everyone agree that GERG had no clue about developing a successful scheme defensively, and yet are willing to look the other way when we discuss the absolute failure of Borges to provide anything close to a consistent offensive scheme?

I read more excuses than facts.  His job is to take the talent we have and MAKE IT WORK.  Denard alone saved Borges' butt for 2 years, and THIS team has a lot of talent  -  Funchess, Gallon, Dileo and Gardner are this team's weapons - yet Borges continues to "pound the rock" vs. PSU and Nebraska when the moment to win the game was there. 

Hoke and Mattison are the reason we have recruited so well, but Hoke's downfall will eventually be Borges.  Like it or not the B1G is STILL a defensive first conference.  GERG didn't understand it defensively and now Borges doesn't get it offensively.  We're screwed unless we see a change.

Go Blue! 

TennBlue

November 20th, 2013 at 3:46 PM ^

His basic philosophy is too brittle, for lack of a better term.  If he's got all the pieces, it works great - but until then it's not very good at all.  Unfortunately, this is college atheltics, and dealing with less than ideal players is the norm.

 

Anybody's offense is going to look great with superior players.  The difference between a good OC and a bad one is the ability to adapt to the limitations of the team  and make something work.  This is where Borges fails and why he needs to go.

ca_prophet

November 20th, 2013 at 3:03 PM ^

It's a great idea and points out what we're arguing over. Some have posted their breakdowns in the threads, but I'd love it if someone could put up a poll/survey to get a broader scope. (Not sure how different the results would be from this, but I am curious.) It seems clear we were dealt a bad hand and have played it poorly. What's in doubt is how much difference playing it perfectly would make. (One more win to date, and more comfortable wins, I think.)

CalifExile

November 20th, 2013 at 4:00 PM ^

1. Fans - 5%. A vocal minority sabotaged RR from the start. The fans who called for RR's firing deserve points too, but there just aren't enough percentages to add more.

2. RR - 0%. He inherited a smoking crater - Jake Long, Chad Henne, Mike Hart, Mario Manningham, Adrian Arrington, Shawn Crable and Jamar Adams departed from the team that lost to Appalachian State. After three years he finally had his team, flaws and all, in place. The team that won 11 games in 2011 was RR's team. RR turned UM around. The current coaches are responsible for the failure to sustain it.

3. The process - 50%. It should be 100% since RR should never have been fired, but that would deprive Borges and other coaches of the credit they deserve. Feel free to read "Dave Brandon" for "the process."

5-7. Borges' issues - 27%. 3/5 of the remaining 45% goes to the various failures of AB. He has lost games through awful game plans (Iowa and MSU in 2011, PSU this year). He has lost games by refusing to take the yards that defenses offer. He failed to give players the game reps they needed to develop (Gardner in 2011 and 20012, Kalis in 2012). He failed to develop a plan to transition from RR's offense to his own. He is constantly shuffling players around, destroying any possibility of continuity or stability. I combine the three because they are all elements of a failure of vision. He has failed to realistically look at what he has - and what he will have - and channel his resources towards his ultimate goal.

8. OL coaching - 9%. For all the criticism of RR, by his third year he was starting a couple of his own recruits in the OL and they were performing well. No one can point to a single player and say "he's better because Funk coached him." There's a bit of mindless insistence that players are better because they're older than they were when they arrived in Ann Arbor but that is an assumption based on zero evidence, only on the observation that that is the ordinary course of development. It ignores the fact that if the ordinary course of development were in effect UM would be blocking better.

9. TE/RB coaching -9%. After three years in college, players should have high school fundamentals down.

This format is somewhat unfortunate in that it subtracts too much of the blame from the current coaches by including a look at how we got here with an assessment of how the current coaches have utilized the tools they have. It would be nice to give the current coaches the 60%-20%-20% credit they deserve. It would also be nice to have a category to give Hoke credit. He is, after all, the head coach and ultimately responsible for the shortcomings of the coaches he chose.

M-Wolverine

November 21st, 2013 at 4:35 PM ^

You're just delusional.  Are you related to him?

He took a 9 win bowl winning team and won 3 games.  Other than Denard and Lewan, almost all the other impact players on the 2011 squad were Lloyd's recruits. The chances of them fielding a defense good enough to win 11 games was the same as your blame level - 0%. 

Because if you can't even bring up the defense, you're skipping the whole story. Ahhh...Bacon, is that you?

CalifExile

November 22nd, 2013 at 12:13 AM ^

Ever since you said that Jake Fisher would be no use to UM today it's been obvious that you're just trolling.

Now you claim that Roundtree, Odoms, Scofield, Omameh, Koger and Fitz (in 2011) were either non-impact players or LC recruits.

On Defense, Roh, Martin, Ryan, Morgan, Countess, Cam Gordon and JT Floyd were all RR recruits. (Martin decommitted after LC resigned. He then committed to Rodriguez).

As I noted earlier, the team RR inherited lost Jake Long, Henne, Hart, Manningham, Arrington, Boren, Shawn Crable and Jamar Adams. It would be unlikely that the team would have won 9 games without them. With them, they lost to Appalachian State.

M-Wolverine

November 23rd, 2013 at 2:36 PM ^

(JT Floyd?) But Koger was a Carr recruit. (Rich recruit a TE??). Van Bergen who was a Carr recruit was much more of a factor that year than Roh. Martin was totally a Lloyd recruit. Otherwise you have to be consistent and then say Countess who you bring up was Hoke recruit. And hey, he had Boren, Arrington, Manningham, (and Mitchell if you consider some of those guys impact), but couldn't keep any of them. Arrington would have stayed if he had someone to throw to him if Rich spent half as much time recruiting guys on the roster as guys who put Ohio State on probation. Plus he ad a lot of pretty good defenders...but you don't want to talk about that.

Bodogblog

November 20th, 2013 at 6:01 PM ^

We can't block anyone in the run or pass game.  All season on DVR I've been watching pulling lineman run right by a defender, presumably leaving him for another blocker, only to watch and see that someone never arrive and the defender kill Fitz or Devin.  In protection they inexplicably let real threats go and help double another guy who was doing fine.  As discussed in other threads, Lewan leaves a DT for Hayes (!) so he can help double a guy who's not doing much.  Barring that decision, Devin has a nice pocket he can step up into or run forward with lots of space.

Bosch gets blown up more than you'd want, but he'll get a lot better with age and strength.  Same with Magnuson.  Glasgow isn't getting overpowered much.  It's the scheme of the blocking. 

Michigan Arrogance

November 20th, 2013 at 7:55 PM ^

IDK, guys. RR getting 25% of the blame in the 3rd year of the Hoke regime doesn't seem legit. I respect the explanations, but look at how the line performed in the 1st 2 weeks vs now.

we've seen complete regression in these last 8 weeks (which have had 2 byes and almost no injuries). I don't see RR-related issues causing that regression in this 8 week period in 2013.

we're at the end of year 3. The offense should be better than this. If DG got hurt, or one or both of the tackles, or Gallon/Funchess,or Lewan went in the draft, I would be more forgiving (for lack of a better word).

really tho- we haven't had many injuries at all this year. this isn't like 2005 where the injury list was 15-18 deep. this isn't 2008 where we didn't have any talent. it's not 2000 (beginning of season) or 2012 (toward the end) where our QB got hurt and had NO depth at the position, which cost us a game or 2 we could have won otherwise. it's not 2004 where we had a true FR QB playing the entire year. it's not 2012 where we had Bama, OSU, Neb and ND on the road (3 of those teams had ONE loss combined, BTW... and that one loss at the hands of one of those very teams).

the offense is just laying eggs all over the field without many excuses to point to besides having 3 young guys at G-C-G and a couple young TEs. if the coaches would have developed a single coherent blocking and offensive system 2 years ago for these guys to learn and operate within in pracitce, film, etc... they'd be performing better. Instead, it's stretch/power pulling guards/tackle over/fullback iso. it's trying to get Funchess to block and finally giving up to put him at WR (where we knew we needed some playmakers anyway). it's tackle over. it's RBs that can't pass pro. it's RS SR RT who can't slide protect. it's (very young and slender) TEs that can't block but are out there anyway.

that said, the jury is 3 games from being 'out' and hindsight is 20-20 and you can't predict the future, nobody's perfect, etc.