MGoPodcast 14.23: At Least Our Degrees Are Intact Comment Count

BlueBarron March 13th, 2023 at 7:00 AM

1 hour and 25 minutes

The Sponsors

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1. The State of the Basketball Program (1)

starts at 1:00

This segment is usually about the latest basketball game but then Michigan scored one basket against Rutgers in 19 minutes so nope. Some people are calling to fire Juwan Howard and those people should probably tap the brakes. Everyone is disappointed but let's talk about it, there was 10 times less hydrogen at the 4 spot this year. It's tough to build a roster these days and one good player at the 4 probably would have put this team into the tournament, admissions really brought this team down. This team did improve defensively throughout the season, even Jett Howard (but That Rutgers Play did still happen). What does the roster even look like next year?

[The rest of the writeup and the player after THE JUMP]

2. The State of the Basketball Program (2)

starts at 35:14

Further roster discussion, this team really needs Kobe Bufkin back next year. What about Jace Howard? This team was extremely unlucky, does that revert to the mean next year? The last two minutes of a game aren't that different from the rest of the game. Is this team just young and nervous at the end of games? 

3. Hockey vs Ohio State

starts at 58:05

Brian predicted Michigan would get cranked by Ohio State, they did not get cranked! David argues that, despite going 1-3 against Ohio State the rest of the season, Michigan's play improved throughout the four games. This team has the ability to go and dominate some very good teams but then also play some terrible hockey. Credit to Wisconsin last week for playing hard for their season against Michigan. Michigan didn't take a major!! 

4. Hockey vs Ohio State and the NCAA Tournament

starts at 1:12:20

Ohio State was getting run out of Yost in just the first 11 minutes, they challenged a goal just to take a long timeout. The Minnesota vs Michigan State game, uhh... looked like a Minnesota vs Michigan State game. Michigan looks to be locked into a 1 seed. Let's talk potential matchups.

MUSIC:

  • "Still Alive (From Portal)"—The 8-Bit Big Band
  • "Hockey Monkey"—The Zambonis, James Kochalka
  • "The Pot & Kettle"—The Rumjacks
  • “Across 110th Street”

THE USUAL LINKS:

 

There's normal vacuum and then there's the super vacuum that we currently find ourselves in, both as a solar system and a basketball program.

Comments

bronxblue

March 13th, 2023 at 12:14 PM ^

Hey, I know it's hard to talk intelligently about sports and it is your inalienable right as a poster on a message board to say whatever you want but it's ALSO your right to sit out a conversation and not come across poorly.

Also, you nearly got there with recognizing that Jett Howard had a really low rebound rate and how maybe someone a bit better at that spot would have helped.  I'll be sitting over here with my glass of kool-aid if you have any questions.

wavintheflag

March 13th, 2023 at 1:32 PM ^

I will blame Slick Nick for walking right into it but this Shanon thing is just the biggest straw man argument about a disappointing season that I have seen here in a long time. Just for kicks I went and looked back on when the biggest reason for this year's failure happened ... hmm, not September .. or August .. or .. well I will skip back to April 29th. Yes, a mere 6 months prior to their first game they knew the savior was not coming!

shoes

March 14th, 2023 at 9:38 AM ^

I too am  a contrarian on not wanting to use the "blame it all on admissions" because we didn't get a transfer in. The occasional portal guy to tweak a team is not the same as depending on the portal every d--- year in order to compete. If we're going to live and die every year based on portal guys, it might be time to rethink the recruiting plan.

Denarded

March 13th, 2023 at 12:29 PM ^

I think the possibility if anyone in college basketball would do something like that, Hunter Dickinson is absolutely that guy. 

If Kobe does choose to go pro, would you really blame Hunter for declining to sign up for another year of double teams kicking out to a wide open Terrence Williams for a brick? Or passing to a cutting Tschetter fumbled out of bounds? 

jmblue

March 13th, 2023 at 12:06 PM ^

one good player at the 4 probably would have put this team into the tournament

No "probably" about that, considering this team was on the brink of the tournament anyway.  A quality 4 probably makes this a Big Ten title contender.

shoes

March 14th, 2023 at 9:44 AM ^

Do all the teams we compete against get the same consideration? If they just got one more guy in, or if that other guy didn't suffer an injury at an inopportune time? Our injury "luck" was better than many of the teams in the Big Ten. It's natural but fans always see their  own team in a vacuum.

bronxblue

March 13th, 2023 at 12:11 PM ^

I'd also like to add that if you're going to sub-tweet me as "the guy who's way too positive and annoying" it was nice to do it early on in the pod.

4th phase

March 13th, 2023 at 1:25 PM ^

In looking at bracket stuff today, I found this image interesting:

r/CollegeBasketball - Eliminating the Pretenders From Contenders

 

It classifies coaches based on trips to the elite 8 per trip to the tournament. I think we can simplify and just say elite 8 per years coaching, because coaches should be penalized for missing the tournament. So in that case, Juwan qualifies as a prodigy at 1/4. 

Based on that, he needs to make the elite 8 at least once in the next 2 seasons. I think that's a reasonable metric for deciding on his future. I've said on the board before, has to be final 4 in the next 3. But I'll take elite 8 in the next 2.

WestPalmBlue

March 13th, 2023 at 2:08 PM ^

Team probably would be better with Shannon, but whose responsbility is it to know what the University's admission guidelines are before investing resources in a player that wont be admitted?  Maybe we could have invested those resources in a player not quite as good who actually would be able to pass the known bar that is UM Admission requirements for transfers?

 

 

DennisFranklinDaMan

March 13th, 2023 at 3:57 PM ^

Eh. The refs were fine. Think of how many more fouls were called against Rutgers in that last game than against us.

Calls against your team inevitably seem crazy unfair, but that's the game. Also, teams that get the ball inside frequently draw more fouls. In so many games other teams seemed to have a lay-up line against us, whereas we would dawdle outside and then heave up a contested shot.

We didn't lose any games this year because of the refs. I'm not saying there weren't bad calls against us, but there were bad calls against everybody, in every game. That's how basketball works.

As for "lucky shots," I don't know. No team hit an (important) shot against us as lucky as the one Dickinson shot against Wisconsin.

blueandmaizeballs

March 13th, 2023 at 2:07 PM ^

Most of the tournament teams I looked at are senior and of 4th year juniors besides a few outliers.  Texas I think has 4 6th year seniors and many other teams have all senior starters or 6th seniors with juniors.   I haven't looked at every team but the vast majority of teams have very experienced teams.   Marquette has juniors and Soph and that is one team that was different then add in the few blue bloods who get the top 20 players and most teams are way older then ours.   

 

 

abertain

March 13th, 2023 at 2:37 PM ^

Good luck to all! The two positions seem to be, luck and youth vs roster construction and some poor management during end of game situations. Michigan has been the 8 seed for three of Howard’s four years, which apparently is fine for some people. I see a dip in the program. Some say regression to the mean. We shall see! 
Count me in camp 1

DennisFranklinDaMan

March 13th, 2023 at 3:53 PM ^

The key reason I'm still firmly enthusiastic about Juwan is his recruiting. So far he's recruiting even better than Beilein -- though, unfortunately, so well that the pros are cherry-picking our most talented players before they've had any chance to adapt to the college game. So be it.

But coaching, it seems to me, is something that can be fixed. Harbaugh, over the years, realized when something wasn't working (like Don Brown), and replaced it. I don't see why Juwan can't do the same thing. Find assistant coaches who can help the team with defense, with late game situations, with spacing, etc. 

I'm confident Juwan knows this is a critical time in his coaching-at-Michigan career, and will do what it takes to bring us out of the spin. Whether that's working the transfer portal, or replacing some of his assistant coaches, or devoting increased time in practice to things like blocking out and plays. Coaches can do that, so unless Juwan somehow is unaware of the problem, unwilling to fix it, or somehow unable to fix it, I don't see why we can't improve things.

But. One thing the head coach alone is ultimately responsible for is recruiting. (Obviously assistants do a lot of it too, but no kid comes to a program without believing in the head coach). And so far, I see no sign that Juwan isn't able to get top-level talent to come here (including via the transfer portal). If that begins to dry up, then we're back to Tommy Amaker- and Brian Ellerbe-era results, and that's when you've got to make changes.

And don't get me wrong -- if he misses the NCAA's next season too, we may start running into trouble. But for now, nobody's suggesting he can't get high level talent -- just that they leave too early. That's a problem, I agree. But it's such a better problem to have than an inability to get it in the first place.

I would love to see Juwan light a fire under this team and under his assistant coaches (or replace them). But I have confidence that he's prepared to do just that, as Harbaugh was. Do the post mortem, figure out what went wrong, and fix it. Go Blue.

True Blue 9

March 13th, 2023 at 4:44 PM ^

You hit on some key points here. I think part of my weariness is Juwan is SO positive in his post-game interviews and what not. Talking about the team improving, playing for each other, sticking together, etc. I dunno, some of the 'fire' you're talking about, I'd love to see. I'd love to hear him say that the results of this season weren't up to the Michigan standard, etc. 

I've wondered if some of it is him kind of feeling like he needs to chill after the Madison....incident. 

I dunno, I for one wouldn't mind if he seemed a little pissed because this season warranted it. 

DennisFranklinDaMan

March 13th, 2023 at 4:56 PM ^

Interesting you mention it. I like Juwan's professionalism, temperament, and general sensibility. But, yeah, there were times where I would have liked him to yank Jett (for example) immediately, and with some apparent anger. The only time I can remember him doing that is with TWII, early in some second half, when it was clear TWII wasn't hustling.

I don't know. I approve of not throwing players under the bus in public, and keeping a calm outlook during press conferences, etc. But, yeah, I think young men need to know that playing without thought, without energy, and without a commitment to the coach's instructions will have immediate consequences, so at least during the game I'd like for Juwan to be a bit less of a "gentleman" and a bit more of a tyrant. At least towards his own team.

And it's not just about the specific player. If Jett, for example, faces no consequences for failing to block out -- I mean, even simply the coach yelling at him -- it's hard for the rest of the team to believe there will be consequences for them, either. 

In fact, traditionally coaches' kids face the most anger, because the coaches want to send a message that they're willing to come down on anyone. In that sense, I thought Juwan missed an opportunity when he failed to express any disappointment (that we could see) towards his son.

True Blue 9

March 13th, 2023 at 5:17 PM ^

Yea, I recall someone made the point about Manny Harris in a thread yesterday (or at some point this weekend) and talking about Beilein pulling him out in a critical game against Iowa but that it didn't matter because a point needed to be made. Feels like Coach Howard likely could have/should have done something like that with Jett. I mean, that box out on that rebound against Rutgers.....I would have been fine with Jett not playing another minute in that game. 

DennisFranklinDaMan

March 13th, 2023 at 5:42 PM ^

It's really hard, I think, for a former player not to sympathize with the young men playing ... and perhaps to assume they're always playing with the fire and commitment he did at their age. I imagine it's difficult to transition from "friend" to coach. 

And yet, there clearly was "something" missing from this team. A killer instinct, a passion ... something. I know it's "feelingsball" -- but I can't believe I'm alone in sensing it. 

Whatever that missing element is, I hope Juwan recognizes it as well, and addresses it, seriously, during the offseason.

HollywoodHokeHogan

March 13th, 2023 at 6:20 PM ^

There are plenty of small scale phenomena that don’t show up in large scale data.  If “nerves” are often equally distributed it will cancel like buy and sell price errors are supposed to in market models (they don’t always do this in practice), just to give an example off the top of my head.
 

I think everyone who’s played sports knows of times when someone makes a mistake because of pressure.  I never played much basketball under pressure, but this is pretty clear to anyone who has followed or played competitive golf.  Try hitting the 12 footer you just made but this time $5k is on the line.  I don’t think it’s a leap of faith to think that some athletes handle pressure better than others, but it might not correlate to much that this is macro observable.
 

 It’s plausibly connected to experience, but most players who are playing D1 have played pressure moments for years in lower level competition. Plus just playing at the D-1 level is puts pressure on players.  The ones that haven’t had that experience are typically not playing in crunch time at this level.  They’ll only pop up if the team is real bad (like lower divisions play) or if there are injuries, so it will be a small portion of the whole sample.  
 

It’s also plausible that good players aren’t any better than their normal in crunch time, but that bad players are below their normal.  Again, this will be hard to sleuth out given that the best players play at the end of the game. E.g. Michigans bad four might be even worse in the last two minutes.  I’m not sure how you sort this out without tracking individual player performance.

 

None of this is to say that “clutchness” is some feature of a team’s DNA, let alone that the lack of this clutch gene or coaching is why the basketball team lost so much.  But it’s too hasty to dismiss phenomenal experiences just because we can’t pry them out of messy large scale data.

UofM Die Hard …

March 13th, 2023 at 10:33 PM ^

Alex was losing me with the “some guys want the ball in the end, some guys crumble ….” narrative he was pushing. It was quite confusing to try and figure out what he was actually trying to say in relation to luck (or whatever we are calling it).  

That has to do with youth not luck

shoes

March 14th, 2023 at 9:52 AM ^

No, it has to do with mental confidence, not luck. Experience can equate to more mental confidence but not always. Some guys have the confidence from the beginning, and for some, who had bad experiences in under performing at critical times, will recall that bad experience and not perform, no matter how old they are.

HollywoodHokeHogan

March 14th, 2023 at 2:21 PM ^

I believe Brian devoted some early pieces to talking about coaches' "lizard brain," which was a description of their fundamental or default tendencies that will revert to when under pressure.  Alex was claiming that a similar phenomena is observable in athletes in pressure situations.  I'm not sure why it's a good explanation for coaching decisions but a bad explanation for playing decisions on Brian's view.
 

njvictor

March 14th, 2023 at 5:25 PM ^

I agree with David, anyone who has played sports know that there are people who have "it" and don't and that it factor can manifest at different times and it doesn't always show up in the numbers

TrueBlue2003

March 15th, 2023 at 9:05 PM ^

Sure, but 1) those guys are weeded out for the most part before they get offers to play big ten basketball 2) teams don't give those guys the ball at end of the games even if they've survived that long and 3) Michigan doesn't have an entire team of them or significantly more than any other team (see the IU guy missing 4 FTs, everyone chokes to some extent, but its hard to systematically choke more than other teams).

I think having a freshman PG that you have to have handling the ball like Michigan might put them at a slight disadvantage but not enough to explain Michigan's bad luck this year.  Especially when the Iowa game was a total brain fart / mistake by Kobe on a tip your hat made three (right after he hit an ice in his veins jumper to take the four point lead).  The IU game was a huge dagger of a three made by Hood-Shifino that you tip your hat to.  Etc etc.  Sometimes you get 8 of 10 coin flips wrong.

TrueBlue2003

March 15th, 2023 at 9:10 PM ^

I'm late to listen but I don't think Seth is correct that low majors are more likely to be on the tail ends of the luck distribution than expected.

For one, there are like 60 P5 teams so any part of a random distribution is only going to consist of only about 15% P5 teams.

Of the top ten luckiest teams this year, Missouri is 9th and Kansas is 10th.

Of the ten most unlucky teams, Stanford was second, OSU was third (ie 361st!! in luck), and Rutgers was 8th most unlucky.

That's about exactly what you'd expect from a random distribution.