For comparison, with OSU's latest impermissible contact violations, their punishment was 2 DAYS of reduced recruiting. So, yeah, a one year suspension or even a first quarter suspension seems a little severe.
Definitely felt like it could have reasonably been 1-1 or 2-1 in the 3d period. (a breakaway due to a player with the puck just falling down. Grrrr.) OTOH, 4-0 didn't feel too far out of place either.
We definitely aren't here saying 'but, the refs' or 'good grief, that was all plinko', which is a nice change.
Outside of that incident which, I feel like, the facts are pretty sketchy, he has always been viewed by 'us' as a team-first, great attitude guy.
He seems to be Gritty McGritterson too. Didn't we have a game against Kofi (?) where Hunter was out and Jace had to play some minutes in the post against him...and he survived it (not saying that we won)?
That video is awesome! Righteous anger, and a doggone thrown in for good measure. I just boxed out my coworker from the coffee machine. After watching that video, I couldn't help it.
So 5th year senior Duncan Robinson was similar or slightly better than freshman Jett at defense? Shocking. Maybe you don't remember what Duncan's defense looked like when he first arrived? Or maybe you don't remember that as he left, people still railed about his defense.
And we also don't seem to remember that Jett was injured for the last several games out there, to the point where he finally sat at the end.
If you don't think that half of athletes 'get into it' with the strength staff at some point, then you haven't been around teams much. Especially guys that want to play but haven't been cleared yet from an injury. (remember that Jace played about 2-3 weeks later, so he was close. In his mind he was probably already there)
From the very limited details that I know, I don't hold judgement against Jace. ( I don't flat out clear him either)
If May and Howard agree that Jace should be here. I am a) very surprised, and b) completely good with it.
It's funny how having your team be terrible takes the annoying off of a lot of other teams and players (not so much on the coaches). Maybe it is just a general numbness.
I know we haven't seen the full roster turnover news yet, but my eye says OSU is better than MSU next year. And I am guessing that OSU hiring from within should keep that roster relatively stable. honestly, MSU's roster mix might have been worse that UM's. (4 guards, 6 centers and 2 wing-types)
I really want to agree with your statement that Underwood is impossible to root for, I tend to agree, but this team has grown on me. I really like their style, and, honestly, I like all of their good players. (although I am a hypocrite, too. If Shannon was on MSU or OSU, I would be much more upset that the court system reinstated him)
We aren't alone. Minnesota carried over 1 or 2 players last year. PSU and Nebraska have had some years with maybe 3? It isn't a formula for sucess, but if it really gets up to 5, that's going to be on the low end of normal around CBB for the foreseeable future.
(I mean, we had 2 years with 5 freshman in the 90s. That means, at most, just 7 players carried over. And, haha, no, I am not equating anything other than roster carryover)
I see it very differently. There isn't a player in our 8-9 man rotation last year that isn't a fit on a power 5 team. Some may have pretty small roles, certainly smaller than they had this year, but most of them would be in the rotation for almost any team.
The problems on this team were lack of high end talent, and an uncomfortable mix of players.
Yes, every rotation player was fine to be on the roster, and would be helpful next year. I’m sure Washington would be a fine 8-9 rotation guy. Everyone else would be, as well. This group lacked a couple of guys who could go get a basket and depth in the front court.
grad transfer, grad transfer, freshman, grad transfer, grad transfer, grad transfer, grad transfer, and grad transfer.
Shannon was supposed to be a grad transfer and his previous school screwed him over. Jackson and Olivier were grad transfers. Not sure on the status of Burnett. The 3 PGs he has brought in were all grad transfers, as was the Brown 6th man shooting guard he brought in for the Elite 8 run.
So it isn't like Howard doesn't know how to get transfers in. The foreign kid this year was a special circumstance.
So the only 'failure' was Love this year, who was coming from a similar level public school as UM, which, ok.
Getting juniors and seniors to transfer when 50+% of their credits won't come is a problem. That can severely limit your options in the world that the portal has become.
There is something wrong with the player culture in the program. HD was the de-facto leader of the team and I wonder if he was ultimately toxic (maybe not toxic as an individual, but a leader not leading in the best direction). Then there was a void this year that I never saw anyone fill. To me, this is a big reason the team went from being a potential 6-10th place BT team to the worst team in the BT in a while.
Think about sophmore X/Z on this team. He was ok as a player, but he was a leader on the court. This team has missed having someone like him over the past couple of years.
Is that a cause of the problem? a result of the problem? I'm not sure if we will ever know.
Does it make difference, that’s up to you. But we are not being honest if we don’t list as a mitigating factor the fact that this team rarely had the same group of available players in back to back games.
only Reed and Burnett played every game. (WillT and TWill only missed 1). And they were all staggered. That makes consistency almost impossible.
Picked up Slaughterhouse-Five the other day. Quick, easy read, and enjoyed it very much. Sometimes the classics (is that old enough to be a classic?) are classics for a reason. So it goes.
Their WR core will be better because their #2 and #4 receivers will be incrementally better....and they lost their #1 and #3? Even if Smith is the best FR receiver ever and Tate makes a big jump, which seems likely, their overall receiver core is not better.
And, no, their TE position didn't improve. It may be close to even (I doubt it), but I don't see that improving either. That's kind of my point.
I keep asking at which position will they be better next year? Incremental at the positions where people stayed, ok. QB? I don't see it. WR, big step down. TE? OL, the incremental improvements can be a bigger deal there, so maybe. Defensively, unless the young guys moving from safety to LB are an improvement, the rest is the same.
Certainly, they have young talent where someone will pop. Their best hope is that staying the same will be good enough, which may be true.
on an odd statistical note. Fernandes for Rutgers played 26 of the 35 non-junk minutes (all jokes about 38 junk minutes ignored) and still managed a -2 in the +/- No wonder those runs in the other 9 minutes felt like an avalanche.
They went full walk-on mode with 5 minutes left when the game was ‘only’ at 22 points. That is early. Rutgers left one guy in for another 90 seconds. That was the least ‘rub it in’ move a coach could do.
Comparing Michigan bench minutes to Purdue's is a terrible comparison for this discussion. Michigan has averaged 2.5 rotation players unavailable per game. The fact that the bench minutes difference is only 3/game is impressive. Do you think JLew plays 84 minutes in the 15 games that he missed? WillT played 24 minutes yesterday that were starter minutes. If Olivier had been available that would have been 15 bench minutes and on and on and on.
And yes, it is an indictment of Purdue that outside of Edey they aren't better than Michigan...which was my point.
Purdue is leading the country in 3 point percentage for a reason; they generate open looks.
There spent a lot of the game fronting Edey, which means he is already inside when a shot goes up.
there were X and Os reasons for much of what you are mentioning. That doesn’t make it bad coaching.
(did UM run the ball vs Washington because UW had a bad coach?)
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Hey, you can't third it...you firsted it :)
I don't care how insulted the NCAA feels about being told to bugger off. This comparison can't be their end result.
OSU - 4 violations, indeed all were very minor (although you could legitimately call one of them 'tampering in the portal'):
VS....
2 recruits got a cheeseburger, someone did a pushup during a zoom call, and a couple of coaching sessions by a non-coach. Also, very minor:
For comparison, with OSU's latest impermissible contact violations, their punishment was 2 DAYS of reduced recruiting. So, yeah, a one year suspension or even a first quarter suspension seems a little severe.
Definitely felt like it could have reasonably been 1-1 or 2-1 in the 3d period. (a breakaway due to a player with the puck just falling down. Grrrr.) OTOH, 4-0 didn't feel too far out of place either.
We definitely aren't here saying 'but, the refs' or 'good grief, that was all plinko', which is a nice change.
Outside of that incident which, I feel like, the facts are pretty sketchy, he has always been viewed by 'us' as a team-first, great attitude guy.
He seems to be Gritty McGritterson too. Didn't we have a game against Kofi (?) where Hunter was out and Jace had to play some minutes in the post against him...and he survived it (not saying that we won)?
Hal McRae FTW!
That video is awesome! Righteous anger, and a doggone thrown in for good measure. I just boxed out my coworker from the coffee machine. After watching that video, I couldn't help it.
So 5th year senior Duncan Robinson was similar or slightly better than freshman Jett at defense? Shocking. Maybe you don't remember what Duncan's defense looked like when he first arrived? Or maybe you don't remember that as he left, people still railed about his defense.
And we also don't seem to remember that Jett was injured for the last several games out there, to the point where he finally sat at the end.
If you don't think that half of athletes 'get into it' with the strength staff at some point, then you haven't been around teams much. Especially guys that want to play but haven't been cleared yet from an injury. (remember that Jace played about 2-3 weeks later, so he was close. In his mind he was probably already there)
From the very limited details that I know, I don't hold judgement against Jace. ( I don't flat out clear him either)
If May and Howard agree that Jace should be here. I am a) very surprised, and b) completely good with it.
It's funny how having your team be terrible takes the annoying off of a lot of other teams and players (not so much on the coaches). Maybe it is just a general numbness.
I know we haven't seen the full roster turnover news yet, but my eye says OSU is better than MSU next year. And I am guessing that OSU hiring from within should keep that roster relatively stable. honestly, MSU's roster mix might have been worse that UM's. (4 guards, 6 centers and 2 wing-types)
I really want to agree with your statement that Underwood is impossible to root for, I tend to agree, but this team has grown on me. I really like their style, and, honestly, I like all of their good players. (although I am a hypocrite, too. If Shannon was on MSU or OSU, I would be much more upset that the court system reinstated him)
We aren't alone. Minnesota carried over 1 or 2 players last year. PSU and Nebraska have had some years with maybe 3? It isn't a formula for sucess, but if it really gets up to 5, that's going to be on the low end of normal around CBB for the foreseeable future.
(I mean, we had 2 years with 5 freshman in the 90s. That means, at most, just 7 players carried over. And, haha, no, I am not equating anything other than roster carryover)
back to back great finishes! I think Auburn was 1 for 10 in the last 6 seconds of that game
What just happened? I went into a meeting with Nevada having a 99.5% win probability. I came out of the meeting with...??? A 1 in 200 result
I see it very differently. There isn't a player in our 8-9 man rotation last year that isn't a fit on a power 5 team. Some may have pretty small roles, certainly smaller than they had this year, but most of them would be in the rotation for almost any team.
The problems on this team were lack of high end talent, and an uncomfortable mix of players.
Yes, every rotation player was fine to be on the roster, and would be helpful next year. I’m sure Washington would be a fine 8-9 rotation guy. Everyone else would be, as well. This group lacked a couple of guys who could go get a basket and depth in the front court.
They were NOT denied by admissions. One was supposed to a grad transfer that didn’t finish his last class in time
One realized how few credits were going to transfer.
not admissions fault. Not really a coach issue either
grad transfer, grad transfer, freshman, grad transfer, grad transfer, grad transfer, grad transfer, and grad transfer.
Shannon was supposed to be a grad transfer and his previous school screwed him over. Jackson and Olivier were grad transfers. Not sure on the status of Burnett. The 3 PGs he has brought in were all grad transfers, as was the Brown 6th man shooting guard he brought in for the Elite 8 run.
So it isn't like Howard doesn't know how to get transfers in. The foreign kid this year was a special circumstance.
So the only 'failure' was Love this year, who was coming from a similar level public school as UM, which, ok.
Getting juniors and seniors to transfer when 50+% of their credits won't come is a problem. That can severely limit your options in the world that the portal has become.
There is something wrong with the player culture in the program. HD was the de-facto leader of the team and I wonder if he was ultimately toxic (maybe not toxic as an individual, but a leader not leading in the best direction). Then there was a void this year that I never saw anyone fill. To me, this is a big reason the team went from being a potential 6-10th place BT team to the worst team in the BT in a while.
Think about sophmore X/Z on this team. He was ok as a player, but he was a leader on the court. This team has missed having someone like him over the past couple of years.
Is that a cause of the problem? a result of the problem? I'm not sure if we will ever know.
Does it make difference, that’s up to you. But we are not being honest if we don’t list as a mitigating factor the fact that this team rarely had the same group of available players in back to back games.
only Reed and Burnett played every game. (WillT and TWill only missed 1). And they were all staggered. That makes consistency almost impossible.
If by saying ‘the year after’ you think those guys will stay two years, that is…not certain
Maybe they are in the portal by morning, but Dug and Reed are both young talent and here right now.
I agree that there isn’t a ‘solid core’ coming back next year, but that isn’t ZERO and NOT ONE
Same freshman year as Bufkin and Dug (before JLew’s injury). He’s the 4th guard with 2 guys that need to play 35 minutes in front of him.
Because he turned it over 5 times doing it in the first half. And Dug has the much better defender on him.
that is, in fact, good coaching.
One excuse they don’t have tonight, for the first time in 6 weeks, they have the same group of players available as last game.
Guy grabs Reed’s arm. Reed brings his arm back and gets called for the foul.
this team has enough struggles, they can’t work through a tough whistle game
Reed?
Dug?
Which is what one means when they say ‘an average BT starter’
But it is. pSU’s first half run was when UM’s entire front court had to sit. Now, here we go again
On that play where Reed dominated the red head (and traveled), he took FAR more contact than this last foul on him. Boo
What options do you have when your 3 (4 with injury) biggest players are on the bench with foul trouble?
Just not true. Defensive rotations have improved dramatically.
Wretched shooting, unforced TOs and fouls trouble. Woof.
will make that comeback more sweet?
Burnett was not OOB
Announcers acting like they have never seen the auto-bench.
All of the user names check out!
Picked up Slaughterhouse-Five the other day. Quick, easy read, and enjoyed it very much. Sometimes the classics (is that old enough to be a classic?) are classics for a reason. So it goes.
Their WR core will be better because their #2 and #4 receivers will be incrementally better....and they lost their #1 and #3? Even if Smith is the best FR receiver ever and Tate makes a big jump, which seems likely, their overall receiver core is not better.
And, no, their TE position didn't improve. It may be close to even (I doubt it), but I don't see that improving either. That's kind of my point.
I keep asking at which position will they be better next year? Incremental at the positions where people stayed, ok. QB? I don't see it. WR, big step down. TE? OL, the incremental improvements can be a bigger deal there, so maybe. Defensively, unless the young guys moving from safety to LB are an improvement, the rest is the same.
Certainly, they have young talent where someone will pop. Their best hope is that staying the same will be good enough, which may be true.
Is that you, Leonard Hamilton?
I am sure this thread is going to spiral down. But taking your question on:
Starting 3, and depth at the 2/3 and 4/5, which is pretty close to what you are saying.
And somewhere, somehow, they need some leadership.
The assumes:
nobody additional leaves. (big assumption, I am sure)
Recruited freshmen can contribute.
Legs looked really heavy in this game.
on an odd statistical note. Fernandes for Rutgers played 26 of the 35 non-junk minutes (all jokes about 38 junk minutes ignored) and still managed a -2 in the +/- No wonder those runs in the other 9 minutes felt like an avalanche.
They went full walk-on mode with 5 minutes left when the game was ‘only’ at 22 points. That is early. Rutgers left one guy in for another 90 seconds. That was the least ‘rub it in’ move a coach could do.
Comparing Michigan bench minutes to Purdue's is a terrible comparison for this discussion. Michigan has averaged 2.5 rotation players unavailable per game. The fact that the bench minutes difference is only 3/game is impressive. Do you think JLew plays 84 minutes in the 15 games that he missed? WillT played 24 minutes yesterday that were starter minutes. If Olivier had been available that would have been 15 bench minutes and on and on and on.
And yes, it is an indictment of Purdue that outside of Edey they aren't better than Michigan...which was my point.
Purdue is leading the country in 3 point percentage for a reason; they generate open looks.
There spent a lot of the game fronting Edey, which means he is already inside when a shot goes up.
there were X and Os reasons for much of what you are mentioning. That doesn’t make it bad coaching.
(did UM run the ball vs Washington because UW had a bad coach?)
Michigan is deeper than Purdue. Note that Michigan played this game missing 2 rotation players and still had almost identical bench production
Felt good to spend a game irate at the officials instead of just depressed about the team.
why do refs with the worst view of calls insist on jumping in and getting calls wrong?
of the 14 fouls on UM’s 3 bigs, how many were vs Edey? It was only 7 or so, I think. (Which is also the number of them that were weak to bad calls)