Stephen White (SBNation) breaks down Mo Hurst

Submitted by dnak438 on

Here's the link: 

https://www.sbnation.com/2018/4/10/17183382/maurice-hurst-scouting-report-nfl-draft-2018

In sum, his take is that Hurst is a top half of the 1st round talent but he's worried about a lack of consistent effort:

With his quickness and power, Hurst ought to be a game wrecker in the league. And hey, he might well go early in the first round.

But for me, Hurst’s effort issues, along with the fact that at he checked into the combine at “only” 6’2 and 282 pounds — which might limit his scheme versatility — mean I’d probably wait until near the end of the first round at the earliest to take him. Nothing personal, I just like dudes who hustle all the time. And who knows? Maybe Hurst will get to the NFL and get paired with a great line coach who pulls his best effort out of him consistently.

I really hope one does, because that Hurst, I’d pay good money to see play on Sundays.

Lucky Socks

April 10th, 2018 at 10:52 AM ^

I’ll give you size because NFL loves measurable success but did any Michigan fan or coach see Mo Hurst give anything less than 100% effort 100% of the time?

Space Coyote

April 10th, 2018 at 11:11 AM ^

He added weight for the combine and pro day, and there were many complaints that it negatively impacted his performance. He should play at his true playing weight if he can perform up to the same level. He's a better DT at 282 than he is at 292, even if it isn't the typical DT size.

Space Coyote

April 10th, 2018 at 11:37 AM ^

I'm well aware he didn't participate at the combine, but his pro day wasn't up to expectations. His times weren't up to expectations. He looked more sluggish than he does on tape. It is speculated that the extra weight may have been part of the problem, because he wasn't at his true playing weight. But his pro day performance (in runs and in drills), for whatever reason (weight, the heart issue causing him to be out of shape, etc.) was much more "meh" than expected given how explosive he is on tape.

pkatz

April 10th, 2018 at 11:46 AM ^

The potential first-round defensive tackle participated in the Wolverines' pro day on Friday, running the 40-yard dash in 4.97 seconds, per NFL.com senior analyst Gil Brandt. A 4.97 would have been one of the fastest times among defensive tackles that ran at the combine. His 31-inch vertical also would have been one of the better jumps among combine DTs. However, his results in events like the broad jump (8-foot-8), short shuttle (4.62 seconds) and 3-cone drill (7.74 seconds) would have placed him in the middle, or a little below the middle, of the combine DTs.

40-yard time and vertical were among the best of the DT grouping, so again, not sure how that is meh.  Granted some of his other results were middle of the pack, but do not see where this is necessarily affected by added weight... unless you are aware of his results prior to adding weight and have something to base your comments on.

Space Coyote

April 10th, 2018 at 11:57 AM ^

His (hand-timed) 40 was good, as was his vertical, but he underperformed ("middle, or a little below middle") in other drills, including one that is primarily measured for explosiveness. The drills you expect your undersized DT to be good at, he wasn't necessarily good at.

He's fine, he's still a late 1st to early 2nd pick most likely. But these drills combined with his performance in other drills were not as strong as anticipated by many scouts. And many that viewed him as a high 1st rounder were unispired by the performance. It wasn't a bad performance that will tank him, it just wasn't outstanding, like his tape shows.

If he can gain weight and maintain his athleticism and effort, then great, he should try to get up to 300 lbs (or at least 295). But I question that's the case, because a) his frame isn't necessarily great for a bunch more weight; b) he never did in the last three years at Michigan, likely for a reason. 

Space Coyote

April 10th, 2018 at 12:32 PM ^

His vertical 5th. Those are good results. He's seen as an undersized DT, and at 290, is still undersized. That his other drills were middle of the pack or worse for all DTs at the combine isn't great, especially when you're undersized for the position. You can't just ignore those because he was top of hsi group for a 40 time, which has limited importance for a DT (his splits are much more important), and vertical (which is good to see, but somewhat expected given his weight). You also can't just ignore all the other drills that happened (it's not all running drills).

He had a generally "meh" performance, which is why he's still predicted late first or early 2nd. It wasn't a bad performance, just generally average. I'm telling you, scouts love his tape, if he would have put up a good showing, he would have moved to the early to middle of the first. It is what it is. There is speculation his additional mass hurt his generally "meh" performance. And if that is accurate, he should go back to his natural playing weight, that he essentially played at for four years at Michigan (almost certainly for a reason).

I like Hurst, I like his as a prospect. I'm just telling you how his pro day was actually perceived. It wasn't perceived as great just because of two drills.

If he's more athletic at 280 than 290, he should play at 280, because his tape shows really well at that playing weight. Not sure how it got turned into something more than that comment.

Space Coyote

April 10th, 2018 at 2:03 PM ^

Then you haven't really been looking.

The part of the article you quoted, but failed to bold, for instance: "However, his results in events like broad jump, short shuttle, and 3-cone drill would have placed him in the middle, or a little below middle, of the combine DTs".

Other places called his overall performance "middling". Draft Twitter, which if you follow the correct people, generally thought the performance was fine but they weren't blown away. His hand-timed 40 likely isn't that fast, because hand-timed is generally faster. So he's left with some good results, and some very middling results, for an undersized DT that relies heavily on athleticism to overcome his lack of size.

Hurst is often compared to Donald as a benchmark, because their styles are similar, even if Donald is an extremely high benchmark to compare to. Nevertheless:

Hurst - Donald - Payne:

Bench: 29 - 35 - 27

40: 4.97 - 4.65 - 4.95

Vertical: 31" - 32" - 28.5"

Broad Jump: 8'8" - 9'8" - 8'11"

3-Cone: 7.74 - 7.11 - 7.58

Short Shuttle: 4.62 - 4.39 - 4.71

Arm: 32" - 33" - 33"

Weight: 292 - 284 - 311

For an undersized DT, Hurst's pro day wasn't bad, but it certainly wasn't great either (and the difference between Hurst and Donald is significant, not just marginal). It was in between. It was fine. It didn't move him up or down really. Athletically, he was much more closer to maybe a little below Da'Ron Payne, who is nearly 20 lbs heavier and more scheme flexible.

So if you only read "impressive", you are reading flawed articles or reading into it what you want. Hurst is a late 1st to early 2nd type pick, with great film, some size concerns, and at least at 292 lbs, not great athleticism.

Space Coyote

April 10th, 2018 at 2:50 PM ^

I’ve repeatedly said he will get drafted late first to early second. I’ve repeatedly said I think he’s a good pospect. I generally think combine results are over rated but serve a purpose. You are acting like I said he did bad and won’t do well in the NFL. I’m not strictly maintaining my line of thinking, I’m reporting what I’ve read, what you have repeated but are ignoring (guess it doesn't count if you didn't bold it, you keep ignoring the fact that I've brought it up, now, repeatedly), and how the numbers actually compare to other high level DTs in this draft. And don't just say "you shouldn't be comparing to Donald" despite them playing at similar size and with similar styles, I also put Payne up there, who is a very different type of DT, and significantly larger.

Two different coaching staffs (and two of the best DL coaches) kept him around 280 (when they made many surrounding players significantly bigger). Maybe he can add weight and maintain his athleticism, that would be great for him. But if he can't he should keep playing at 280, the point being that the additional 10 lbs don't make up for hurting his overall athleticism. Given his pro day performance, he didn't put up "impressive" athletic numbers for his position given his draft range and size, regardless of how you splice it. I've given my evidence, I've compared the results, I've pointed you in the direction of others with similar opinion (which you supposedly reviewed, who knows who), and all you've done is provide a single quote that generally falls in line with my argument. And I'm the one stubbornly sticking to my line of thinking?

Watching From Afar

April 10th, 2018 at 11:00 AM ^

Yeah "lack of effort" was the one thing I've never heard as a criticism levied towards Hurst.

He didn't always shoot gaps so if you say "why doesn't he do that ALL the time?" then I don't know what to tell you. Bumrushing up field 1000mph doesn't work every down. He took double teams when necessary and worked down the line instead of through it on purpose.

A small DT doesn't put up the stats he did like TFL and sacks, if he isn't going 110% consistently. Shit, he almost put up DE pass rushing numbers like Bosa, Winovich, and Gary did.

bronxblue

April 10th, 2018 at 12:03 PM ^

Because as we've seen, former players are always 100% objectively correct while analyzing current and future players.

White is fine.  He knows football, and he's better than your average SBNation author.  He has some good analysis on players, but he's wrong about a lot of elements as well, not just with Michigan players.  He thought Amari Cooper would struggle in the NFL and LaQuon Treadwell would be a pretty good receiver, both of which were just wrong, for example.

I don't disagree with him that Hurst has some physical limitations.  But at no point, ever, has anyone said Hurst doesn't play with less of a motor than any other player.  Yes, sometimes guys will be pushed out of a play and don't sprint immediately back.  That isn't "loafing", unless every player in the NFL is a loafer.  So it's either a wrong statement or a misleading one designed to get attention.  

DrMantisToboggan

April 10th, 2018 at 10:59 AM ^

Effort is...really reaching for a criticism. Hurst gives plenty of effort in all aspects of life - he was an undersized three star from an under-recruited state who turned himself into an All-American graduate student who also worked a part-time job. I don't think effort is going to be an issue for Mo's pro team.

Sione For Prez

April 10th, 2018 at 10:59 AM ^

Seemed like a weird criticism. The play he highlighted when he said "this looks mad suspect" was hurst not quite finishing sprinting down a play that was strung out to the sideline and there were 4 defenders already in process of bringing down the runner.

 

Space Coyote

April 10th, 2018 at 11:06 AM ^

He nailed some things with Lewan, and also spent and exorbitant amount of time complaining that sometimes a TE lined up to his side.

For Hurst, the size thing is a complaint. The lack of a consistent second move is a complaint. The lack of scheme versitility is a complaint. I don't think "effort" is a complaint that sticks for as much as he talked about it. And, in fact, I think the plays he clipped that "lacked effort" generally saw Hurst do enough to get his job done.

Yes, he needs to get his eyes to the ball carrier faster (that would help him redirect on draws and finish more plays), but to me it was never a full-fledged effort issue other than, ok, he didn't go balls out every second of every snap (which you wouldn't want because it wouldn't be an efficient use of his energy or a controlled style of play).

I like other posts from White well enough, but he wouldn't be my go-to for draft takes.

4roses

April 10th, 2018 at 11:58 AM ^

Aaron Donald has been to 4 straight pro bowls, was the NFL defensive player of the year in 2017, and is generally recognized as one of the best players (at any position) in the  NFL. He measured at 6' 3/4" and 285 lbs at the combine. So while I totally understand the theory that an NFL DT needs to be in the 310 - 325 range to be effective, shouldn't Aaron Donald call all this into question?  

Space Coyote

April 10th, 2018 at 12:14 PM ^

And Donald was ridiculously productive in college, well beyond what even Hurst has done.

Look, if Hurst wasn't as talented as he was, at his size (he's also shorter than Donald, though I'm not sure how arm length compares which is much more important than height, but often correlates), there is no way he would be a potential first round pick. That speaks to his tape and his talent. But he's still undersized. It's still a legit concern and criticism, even if he has other talents to overcome it. If Donald could do what he does at 300 lbs, he'd be even better. He'd be able to do even more that you could ask out of a DT. Donald was a great talent, high production, and is in a perfect scheme for him. But he will face the same questions if he enters free agency because his size may limit his scheme fit, and that's even after being ridiculously productive at the NFL level.

So yes, Hurst can play at 280, and in fact, I'd rather he play at 280 than 290 if that extra 10 lbs impacts his strengths, because it's his strengths that make him such an appealing talent; he isn't better off marginalizing those strengths to slightly improve other parts of his game. Michael Bennett in Seattle also showed you could be even more undersized and extremely effective on the inside (both at 3T and NT; though he moved all over, including outside, but was also 270). It's not impossible, but it doesn't make it not a legit criticism or concern.

ak47

April 10th, 2018 at 11:12 AM ^

Its not something we have heard at all but last year was the first year Hurst played true starter level snaps, its definetely possible conditioning and regulating effort was something he was still learning and something we might not pick up on as fans that can look like effort fluctuations in a small sample size as well.

Ali G Bomaye

April 10th, 2018 at 11:06 AM ^

I agree with everybody else who has commented: Hurst is a player who gives incredible effort.

My speculation: last year, we didn't have a significant DL rotation. Winovich, Hurst, and Gary played a relatively high percentage of non-garbage-time snaps. Because of this, Hurst didn't wreck shit literally every play, and an analyst that wasn't aware of the team situation interpreted that as a lack of effort.

bronxblue

April 10th, 2018 at 11:48 AM ^

I think White is a smart analyst, but I've read a number of his write-ups before on linemen and (a) his track record isn't particularly amazing, and (b) he's chastised guys about effort/motors before and it always feels like a crutch to just say he doesn't think the guy is as good as others believe.

I mean, I've seen comments like this a couple of times in the past from him.

 

Because I am technically an NFL writer for SB Nation and I cover the whole league, basically, I pretty much have to immerse myself into the NFL in the fall. That means i don't get to watch nearly as much college football as I used to, and even what I do watch, I'm not usually watching as closely as I used to. Unless it's my Vols, of course, but then they kept losing last year at first and I thought I was a jinx so ... look, never mind. I don't get to watch college football as much I used to, OK?

So you take a couple of games, parse a couple of plays from those games, and then you have stuff like "Mo Hurst can be good if you wants to be" BS.

Hurst is not an amazing physical talent at DT, and that could limit his upside in a particular defensive scheme where he's asked to just be a planet. But at no point has Hurst ever looked like he isn't going hard out there.

lhglrkwg

April 10th, 2018 at 12:31 PM ^

My main concern with Hurst would be health honestly. I know he was cleared, but stuff can come up again later. I'd be most worried about him having to retire quickly

1VaBlue1

April 10th, 2018 at 1:04 PM ^

I don't agree with White's assessment.  However, if it helps Mo fall to #20, where the Lions can pick him, I'm okay with it.  I'd love to see Hurst anchoring the Lions DL.

(And yet, there's a part of me that would like Mo to experience successful fulfillment in the NFL.  Conundrum...)

mgobleu

April 10th, 2018 at 3:57 PM ^

Effort level shouldn't be a question but there is a small chance he'd quit the NFL to go back to a more lucrative career driving for uber.